The Spoony Experiment - Because bad movies and games deserve to be hurt back!

Squall’s Dead

Spoony | Feb 18 2010 | more |

Quite a few of you (or maybe just one very persistent person) have sent me a link to a site called Squall’s Dead, which posits a fairly well-reasoned argument that, well, Squall dies when he attacks the Sorceress Edea on her parade float. In that scene, she impales him with a roughly four-foot long spear of ice through the chest– an injury it seems unlikely anyone could survive. Indeed, I raised the bullshit flag when, in the next scene, Squall awakens in some mobile, drill-shaped Galbadian prison hale, hearty, and with nary a scratch on him. At some point, I guess I just had to let it go, because we’re talking about a world where Curagas and Phoenix Downs exist specifically to raise the dead.

But anyway, the argument suggests that nearly everything following Squall’s mortal wound is a fevered dream as his consciousness slowly loses its grip on memory and reason. The first argument is that, from that scene on, the game doesn’t make any fucking sense whatsoever, from the Sorceress’ bullshit nonsense “time compression” plan, to the mass-amnesia that caused every main character to conveniently forget that they spent their entire childhoods together in the same orphanage. I have to admire the somewhat circular logic: the story is complete rambling, frothing-at-the-mouth idiocy, because it’s the product of a nightmare in Squall’s rapidly-deteriorating-to-braindead mind.

The major evidence is the balls-out trippy dream sequence at the very end, when Squall has killed Ultimecia and royally butt-fucked the space-time continuum. The literal interpretation is that the time-stream (which has been scrunched into a ball like so much aluminum foil) is rather messily re-straightening itself, and it probably doesn’t help that Squall’s entire plan centered on thinking really positively that everything will just work itself out. No, really. They decided to fix the completely-screwed timeline with optimism. Always seemed to me about as pointless as trying to clean used toilet paper. Baby, the damage is done.

The other interpretation is that Squall’s mind is in its final throes, and in its last moments is failing to recall faces, descending rapidly into chaos and jumbled, manic flashes of traumatic memory. Squall desperately tries to replay his memories, focusing ever-harder on the obscured faces, and only having them slip away. And in hindsight, it is rather evocative of Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, and if I gave the authors of this game the slightest amount of credit, I might have bought this theory. But I don’t.

Look, it’s cute. I’m proud that you came up with it, and really, it’s better than what was intended. I can appreciate you finally realizing that FF8′s plot is so bad, you’ve invented a better one as a coping mechanism. But it doesn’t really work. Other stories with “crackpot” theories like this (Minority Report, Total Recall) hold more water, and were likely pitched as alternate endings. But look at the story you’re telling if the “Squall’s Dead” theory is true: Squall attempts to assassinate the Sorceress, fails, gets impaled, dies, and…then what?

He’s dead. The dream is ultimately meaningless. Nothing really happens in it that impacts the “real” world. Maybe Squall gets some internal closure, but so what? The Sorceress wins, rules the world, has her would-be assassins summarily executed, and evil triumphs. Hardly a fulfilling close to the story, wouldn’t you say? Not much of a story; a bunch of untrained, untalented pissant mercenaries attack the most powerful, evil sorceress in history and get completely annihilated.

Huh. Okay, I’ll admit that does sound more likely.

Anonymous

I don’t think i’ll ever get why you hate this game so much, personally it is one of my favourites. I guess your problem is you cannot go into a video game and suspend your disbelief for one moment and that is the reason the video game medium is dying around us today.

Anonymous

So your saying if we “suspend our disbelief” that automatically makes it a good game right? Of course it does…
Anonymous

So your saying if we “suspend our disbelief” that automatically makes it a good game right? Of course it does…

Anonymous

I actually find this kinda weird, but I don’t know, I like the game, the storyline & the characters is one the most shit in the whole FF series and I enjoy a lot seeing spoony ranting, bashing & tearing the game piece by piece, is just unique, he throw a lot of jokes in the middle & made the game look more stupid than I thought it was.
What’s worse about FF8 is that the focus of the story is supposed to be the romance, but even at that the game fails.
FF2, FF4,FF6 & FF7, present a much better love stories in comparison to 8, that makes the game even worse, because it fails even at the purpose it supposed to serve.
Anonymous

Now spoony, Square-enix pulled the whole “It’s a dream now by the main character of the NEXT game and you need to buy that $60 P.O.S if you want to beat THIS game.” trick and made anyone who worked a final fantasy 10 feel absolutely jilted out of an ending, so why couldn’t they do it here? I have a perfect answer for that, just like in real life, no matter what happens to the emo bitch, he just won’t die. He is made invincible to the measure of fucking superman by the focused energies of the undersexed and frustrated fan-girl self induced orgasms suffered at the thought of him. It’s the same energies that have sustained Cloud and Sephiroth. It is a powerful force… that I will some day harness for the great powers of my own creation, A giant flaming emo… made of FIRE! Muha ha ha ha- erm… um…
Anonymous

I dont believe for a second that thats the intended plot, i wish it was tho :)
Anonymous

Hah kinda ironic really. I was just reading Squalls dead yesterday and today hopped on tse like always and find a post about it. Lol figgered someone would tell spoony about it. I thought it was a rather intresting read, theres holes sure but it makes sense in a odd way.
littlenorwegians

What is this, stealth criticism?
Diggerjohn111

If actual history was a model; the mercs being wiped out by the actual power, as opposed to “the power of friendship”, would be far more likely.
Anonymous

I agree that this is just a fan coping mechanism. I don’t, however, agree that a) it’s “meaningless” if the theory is true or that b) even if I grant that it’s “meaningless”, that it would not be chosen as the basis for a story.

a) Hollywood made a movie about the 20 July plot, which ultimately failed at assassinating Adolf Hitler. Does it follow that Adolf Hitler then went on to rule the world? Nope. Simply because Squall’s team failed does not necessarily mean that the world goes to hell and the Sorceress rules the world.

b) More importantly, in regards to “meaningless”. I’m quoting it because you’re begging the question as to what constitutes meaningless. If meaning can only come from having some impact on the physical world, then MANY works (including classics) in film and literature would all be “meaningless” hence we should dismiss their meanings and look for some “real physical effect”. e.g. Notes from Underground, Finnegans Wake and Metamorphosis are all “meaningless” in their own way. There are other examples such as any novel or film that does the whole “dream before death” concept. So while you can define meaning in this way it would be a useless concept.

On the other hand, if you don’t define meaning in this narrow way then FF8 can be seen as meaningful not in a “so what happens to the real world Squall lives in?” way, but meaningful as a narrative structure.

tl; dr: Yeah I highly doubt the “Squall’s dead” is the intended interpretation by the creators of FF8, but it can’t really be rejected based on your objection.
Anonymous

I agree that this is just a fan coping mechanism. I don’t, however, agree that a) it’s “meaningless” if the theory is true or that b) even if I grant that it’s “meaningless”, that it would not be chosen as the basis for a story.

a) Hollywood made a movie about the 20 July plot, which ultimately failed at assassinating Adolf Hitler. Does it follow that Adolf Hitler then went on to rule the world? Nope. Simply because Squall’s team failed does not necessarily mean that the world goes to hell and the Sorceress rules the world.

b) More importantly, in regards to “meaningless”. I’m quoting it because you’re begging the question as to what constitutes meaningless. If meaning can only come from having some impact on the physical world, then MANY works (including classics) in film and literature would all be “meaningless” hence we should dismiss their meanings and look for some “real physical effect”. e.g. Notes from Underground, Finnegans Wake and Metamorphosis are all “meaningless” in their own way. There are other examples such as any novel or film that does the whole “dream before death” concept. So while you can define meaning in this way it would be a useless concept.

On the other hand, if you don’t define meaning in this narrow way then FF8 can be seen as meaningful not in a “so what happens to the real world Squall lives in?” way, but meaningful as a narrative structure.

tl; dr: Yeah I highly doubt the “Squall’s dead” is the intended interpretation by the creators of FF8, but it can’t really be rejected based on your objection.
Sexual_Tyrannosaurus

I liked the theory my roommate came up with, where Squal died much early in the game when before the Prom. He whipped himself into such a emo whirlwind that he decided a prom is just to much for his depressive mind and he decides he’d like a yearbook page all to himself. So he puts on his favorite j-pop import, takes a ton of Advil cause he is a wuss, and slits his wrist in his dorm bathroom. and MOST of the game is his last moments of sudden blood loss.
kallikanzarid

I dunno, it looks pretty solid to me. I haven't played the actual game, but see if you can remember any UBIK reference. If you indeed can, then Squall is 100% dead. If you can't, it's still a very solid theory.
kallikanzarid

Actually, AVGN had the same complaint when he discussed B-movies. I find it funny, though, that people had made such a big deal about floating pieces of land in Avarar, like it fucking mattered to the story :)))

On the other hand, Spoony is mostly complaining about the very story of the game, which I find to be more reasonable.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Quiroga/1260810894 Michael Quiroga

Well it definitely is a shaky theory. But if you want to improve the game's image in your mind (only if you want to), then it provides a very deep and well-put together plot in comparison to the absolute randomness that's going on otherwise. I mean they blew through so many random-ass characters like NORG in under a minute that I'd hope that was someone's dying fabrications.
jahith

I'll say that in the light of this theory Squall was sent to YOUR hell and is forced to play FF8 over and over again for entire eternity! Witch this is AWSOME!

He deserves that,
for killing you in the gut!

ps. How's your time managment? still working on shitload of stuff and nothing ends up done?
http://www.slowzombies.blogspot.com Slowzombie

Ah, the ubiquitous “The hero was dead since event X”-theory, only slightly less prevalent than “The story is set in hell/purgatory.” Well, I guess it makes about as much sense as it can, which isn't much, but… y'know.
Ragehead91

Actually the whole theory sounds pretty good to me. If you look at all the events that take place from the 2nd disc onwards it does make sense. No, actually, it would still be a huge load of random shit but it would make sense in the context of it being fabrications of someone's mind right before his death.
BeardSeekingMissile

It would make sense that Squall suffered an injury cos of the ice spear, but it also makes sense that it wouldnt have left a mark.
After all, you can summon gods of fire, ice, lightning etc. to whale on your enemies and all it does is mildly irritate some of them.
Yes, magic hurts but doesnt leave lasting injuries…i guess.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Havard-Tepes-Dracule/100000433315795 Havard Tepes Dracule

Its amazing what fanboys and fangirls will do to convince themselves that a story dosent suck.
cynic667

A great example of the phenomenon that humans tend to include random facts, unrelated stuff and confusing, non-sensical elements into narratives. I remember a psychological experiments where the probants are shown simple moving geometric figures like triangles, lines and squares, and a large portion of the probants anthropomorphed these and weaved a narrative around it. Here they didn't even have to anthropomorph, so it's even easier to weave a narrative out of absolutely non-snesical, unrelated and even stupid stuff ;P

Anonymous

“I love humans. Always seeing patterns in things that aren’t there.”
- The Eighth Doctor, Doctor Who
Anonymous

“I love humans. Always seeing patterns in things that aren’t there.”
- Eighth Doctor, Doctor Who

topopox

Yeah, kinda sad
http://bluehighwind.blogspot.com/ BlueHighwind

Actually back when I was at the Final Fantasy wiki I came up with a theory extremely similar to this one, because the story wasn’t THAT bad right up until Squall’s survived the ice shard. Personally, I just abandoned the game around the end of disc 2 because I just couldn’t be bothered with the story or the battle system anymore. My favorite character was Edea, and she was just written out of the plot once you return to Earth after your ridiculous space adventure.

Anyway, what I really like about this idea is a the side logic to get out of it. Squall imagines Edea, his murderer, to be a motherly figure in his life as the “Matron” of the Orphanage. In essence, he wants to be mothered by the person who murders him. Despite being a loner at heart, he envisions a world where everybody around him was just one big family in the past and become one once again. Then of course there’s the love story with Rinoa, which is a fairly pedestrian fantasy, but still revealing much about Squall’s character. These fantasies make him into a much deeper and more complicated character than anything Square Enix could possibly put together.

Retcon, please?
Gauphastus

Uh… you must realize he does like other games, dude. There are tons of them out there.
The gaming world isn't going to die out just because Spoony and other people don't/can't enjoy this particular game. Or a few others.
Likes and dislikes are perfectly human things you know.
johnnyfog

Nope. What's sad is that you can attach any given fanfic to viii's storyline and it automatically makes more sense. That's how broken the plot is.
goodfella

You ignored my point completely. I said that people cannot suspend their disbelief, thus we are constantly given games like call of duty. Today if something doesnt make sense in a game everyone flip out trying to prove the logic to be wrong. Same has happened to the tv show lost you should see the shitstorms taking place because it doesnt make sense now. I guess for people today logic is better than fun.

But yeah i never mentioned that just because spoony doesn't like the game he alone will tear apart the industry, stop putting words in my mouth.

Anonymous

But even a fictional world must be constructed in a logical way. You can create a world without the Laws of Physics, but you can’t create a world without the Laws of Logic. An illogical situation is possible, but an entire world would fall apart in a second.
Anonymous

So, you’re saying games should abandon plots that actually make some semblance of sense and make games that just throw random elements into an impenetrable storyline, just so people have to suspend their disbelief to make up for the bad writing?

How about a game that has logic and is fun?

And on the topic of fun vs logic, how much logic do 95% of the games on Xbox Live Arcade make? A man with the ability to jump via exploding himself? A ninja bouncing off walls, avoiding flying robots to collect gold? An escapologist in a trilby saving innocents?

Anonymous

Well I for one enjoyed the plot and it actually does make sense IF you are willing to suspend your disbelief. I bet most people on here that are complaining that the plot doesn’t make sense are the same people who never played the game and are basing their entire opinion of the game on spoony’s review.

Also the elements “thrown in” were not random at all, if you actually spent time paying attention to the plot instead of going “lololol this is stupid time travel is impossible” then you would realise every element of the story makes sense when placed in that universe. The person who wrote the story is not the monkey at a typewriter you make him out to be but actually a serious writer who put thought and time into the story.

Anonymous

Suspending your disbelief has nothing to do with it, I can accept flying schools, time travel by magic, summons (and their memories eating effects) and much more, but that doesn’t make the plot good, it’s still badly written, the characters are still shallow and unlikeable.

Fantasy genre is my favourite, I hate realism because it’s too normal, but it has to make at least some sense within the story settings.
Anonymous

Suspending your disbelief has nothing to do with it, I can accept flying schools, time travel by magic, summons (and their memories eating effects) and much more, but that doesn’t make the plot good, it’s still badly written, the characters are still shallow and unlikeable.

Fantasy genre is my favourite, I hate realism because it’s too normal, but it has to make at least some sense within the story settings.
Anonymous

If there’s one thing the many flame wars raged across the Internet have proven, its that fanboys can never be convinced they’re wrong. Therefore, I’m not going to try. I will say this in closing, though: Yes, I haven’t played FFVIII. But here’s my argument. KOTOR2 is one of my favourite games on the Xbox. I play it still. But, even to this day, I still don’t know what in the flying fuck the story’s about. You know why I don’t care? Because the gameplay doesn’t involve pointless mini-games (well, OK, Pazaak, but at least it isn’t compulsory) and mindless repetition of tasks. The worlds are believable, the characters are at least developed if not that deep, and the incomprehensible plot is at least enough to get behind. In a word, I suspend my disbelief when playing KOTOR2. I don’t mind the lightsabres, force powers, talking slugs, evil walking carpets and Sith who can eat worlds. Now THAT is how you write games!

As a famous confectionery salesman once said, “IT’S ALL THERE, BLACK AND WHITE, CLEAR AS CRYSTAL! GOOD DAY, SIR!”

Anonymous

Well I for one enjoyed the plot and it actually does make sense IF you are willing to suspend your disbelief. I bet most people on here that are complaining that the plot doesn’t make sense are the same people who never played the game and are basing their entire opinion of the game on spoony’s review.

Also the elements “thrown in” were not random at all, if you actually spent time paying attention to the plot instead of going “lololol this is stupid time travel is impossible” then you would realise every element of the story makes sense when placed in that universe. The person who wrote the story is not the monkey at a typewriter you make him out to be but actually a serious writer who put thought and time into the story.

Anonymous

Spoony didn’t enjoy the gameplay. He found it tedious, and annoying. So thus, without enjyale gameplay, he can’t suspend his disbelief. These kinds of games (JRPGs) are supposed to have good story, and he found it retarded. So annoying gameplay, annoying required side missions, and annoying story make him loath the game. This seems justified.
Anonymous

WELCOME TO THE SPOONY EXPERIMENT. REVIEWS AND VIDEOS AND ALL KINDS OF FUN STUFF, RIGHT. :D

Not ignoring jack, bro! And those are your own words; nobody’s falling for that one. Attention: Spoony and other people don’t/can’t enjoy this particular game, or a few others. They could not suspend their disbelief, as you’ve said.

Everybody does this. All the time. They do it with movies too, TV, music, art, books. It’s not like it’s a widespread epidemic that must be contained. Furthermore, the game industry reacts and performs the way it does for a multitude of reasons the least of which being people’s inability to suspend disbelief.

Come on now. I think we all know what this is really about: you’re butthurt that someone with a bit of celebrity doesn’t like a game that he do, which behind this poorly presented argument is the only reason you’re trying to ‘explain away’ people’s distaste for FFVIII.
Class act.

Just going to restate in case we’re still missing the point –
Some games make it easy for you to suspend your disbelief and some don’t. This is subjective to the individual. Therefore, it follows that Spoony did not enjoy FFVIII, because he could not.

Then there’s the whole issue of this thing sorta being a running gag for his whole entertainment website thing he’s got going here. Kinda makes people who complain about this stuff look like total jackasses, but hey. You do what you can to pass the time, eh?
Anonymous

WELCOME TO THE SPOONY EXPERIMENT. REVIEWS AND VIDEOS AND ALL KINDS OF FUN STUFF, RIGHT. :D

Not ignoring jack, bro! And those are your own words; nobody’s falling for that one. Attention: Spoony and other people don’t/can’t enjoy this particular game, or a few others. They could not suspend their disbelief, as you’ve said.

Everybody does this. All the time. They do it with movies too, TV, music, art, books. It’s not like it’s a widespread epidemic that must be contained. Furthermore, the game industry reacts and performs the way it does for a multitude of reasons the least of which being people’s inability to suspend disbelief.

Come on now. I think we all know what this is really about: you’re butthurt that someone with a bit of celebrity doesn’t like a game that he do, which behind this poorly presented argument is the only reason you’re trying to ‘explain away’ people’s distaste for FFVIII.
Class act.

Just going to restate in case we’re still missing the point –
Some games make it easy for you to suspend your disbelief and some don’t. This is subjective to the individual. Therefore, it follows that Spoony did not enjoy FFVIII, because he could not.

Then there’s the whole issue of this thing sorta being a running gag for his whole entertainment website thing he’s got going here. Kinda makes people who complain about this stuff look like total jackasses, but hey. You do what you can to pass the time, eh?

http://www.facebook.com/chrishominski Chris Hominski

This theory reminds me of some of the stuff people would say when MGS2 had just come out. Everyone thought that the entire end of the game in Arsenal was a dream Raiden was having. Personally, I think you could just apply the X-Files logic to main characters: Mulder and Scully can be shot, stabbed and blown up and yet, be totally fine within an episode or two. The same rule applies to Squall and most other main characters. It seems to me that this FF8 theory is yet another way for fanboys to cover up shitty writing.
Gauphastus

What's in the game is exactly what's in the game. Whatever you don't understand and the game does not explain to you is exactly that.
It's odd seeing people try to.. justify this game's oddness by crafting up what is essentially fanfiction.

But what the hell. It makes for a fun read.
And I'll admit, Final Fantasy VIII, while a good bit on the awful side, made for a fun little adventure back in '99.
Salenstormwing

This is why I liked Xenogears more than FF8. As messed up and convoluted as Xenogears was, at least it made more sense than FF8. Plus, the game had actual mechs in it, and if you wanted them to be more powerful, you'd put bigger engines in them with more fuel to allow them to fight more. That makes sense.
They Call Me The Fizz

This reminds me of the “Zion's a secondary Matrix” theory the Matrix die-hards came up with after the end of Revolutions so they wouldn't have to admit to themselves they were had by two one-trick ponies…

Funny how fanboys would rather rewrite logic rather than admit the existence of any fault in the property latched onto like a barnacle

And the less said about the “Chewie and R2D2 are Super-Secret Agents!” theory the better…

Anonymous

I remember after Matrix: Reloaded, my friend used that theory to explain why Neo had gained powers in the ‘real’ world. Alas, the third movie was nowhere near as good as that theory would have set it up to be.

http://rahul.choudhury.name/ Rahul

Hi there, thanks for linking to us and crafting this write-up!

Let me comment on your conclusions. Have you ever watched Coen bros. movies? Burn After Reading, No Country For Old Men and the recent A Serious Man come to mind. Both these movies tell stories where, ultimately, in themselves, barely anything significant really happens. People with literal interpretations came away from these movies similarly to how you came away from our theory: what was the point? If nothing happens, why did I waste my time?

In our view, the dream is the story, and it's a very interesting one because rather than the ridiculous time kompression plot device, we're watching an intense character study of a teenage kid with perfectly healthy questions about life and his place in it. From disc two onwards we're watching a thoughtfully constructed, subtle montage of events focused on crafting the utopian fantasy any teenage boy would want: saving the girl, beating up the bully, saving the world, having an awesome dad.

I choose to interpret the game this way in the same way that I interpret Coen Bros. movies: through the subtleties of the storytelling. The overarching storyline – some guy finding a bag of money and then getting killed by a crazed assassin, for instance – are less interesting.
http://rahul.choudhury.name/ Rahul

Yeah, that Rinoa=Ultimecia theory makes no sense at all.
http://rahul.choudhury.name/ Rahul

Did you read the article? Because we “fanboys” fully admit the fault of the storyline. That's exactly why we choose to interpret it differently. Further, have you ever heard of something called interpretive analysis? ;)
http://www.facebook.com/chrishominski Chris Hominski

I can't believe you just compared FF8 to the Coen Bros
http://rahul.choudhury.name/ Rahul

Because?
They Call Me The Fizz

And hence why the fangirls defend it so… They don't want to lose their little sandbox
Bosh_Depanzer

(Disheartening sigh) OMG. If the theory were correct it would work. The fever dream is Squall's “Final Fantasy” as it were because he's going to die. I wouldn't be surprised if this was at least pitched as an idea but dropped mainly for the reasons Spoony pointed out.
http://rahul.choudhury.name/ Rahul

His “Final Fantasy”? http://goo.gl/QfcQ
Tuxlar

I find it's just easier not to give a shit either which way.
kallikanzarid

Nice analysis you guys pulled up, I really enjoyed it 8) However, it's ultimately the Word of God that will settle this issue, and I hope we'll get the answer soon enough.
LeeEnfeild

Actually, that is a really interesting idea. I haven't seen that much stupid explained so swiftly since I saw the deleted scenes from the last Star Trek movie. Though, assuming that Squall -did- die, and that the events of disc 2, 3, and 4 are his brain shutting down, how do you explain the weird stuff on disc 1, prior to the assassination attempt? Like, the Laguna flashbacks? Or the president's zombie body double? Or the sorceress ripping out a man's soul to thunderous applause and a parade?
http://rahul.choudhury.name/ Rahul

You don't. Squall doesn't know why any of that is happening. All we know is he dies, and in his fantasy we experience what he thinks happened or would have liked to have happened, as surely he had been thinking about those events himself.
LeeEnfeild

So the inexplicable stuff on disc 1 only serves the narrative purpose of inspiring the inexplicable stuff on discs 2-4?
They Call Me The Fizz

Are you seriously comparing FF8 to Jacob's Ladder?
http://rahul.choudhury.name/ Rahul

Yes.
http://rahul.choudhury.name/ Rahul

Jacob's Ladder has been mentioned by several people as comparable, so in that sense, it's related. I'm not comparing anything to anything else. That two unrelated stories happen to have consistencies is just a coincidence, as far as I'm concerned.

Mulholland Drive and other Lynchian movies have also been brought up.
Anonymous

Did anyone stop and think that Squall got arrested? I don’t know FREEZE kinda sounds funny… Squall still has to respect the law. I have never believed the fights were real…Think about it like this Squall got up on the float and basically protested and Seifer came to for a minute cause believe it or Squall and Seifer are friends…anyway As Squall is bitching about whatever to the sorceress the authorities finally make it through the crowd and he has to respect the law think about it he can’t even walk in the Generals house…huhhh… Does anyone remember the movie previews for Final Fantasy VIII which quickly changed to “The Spirits Within” I was pissed…anyway but Final Fantasy VIII or like all of them where original script and proly would have made great novels…and one more thing this was the last Final Fantasy made by the original people and is a very diverse game…furthermore how do you know its a game…
Anonymous

Did anyone stop and think that Squall got arrested? I don’t know FREEZE kinda sounds funny… Squall still has to respect the law. I have never believed the fights were real…Think about it like this Squall got up on the float and basically protested and Seifer came to for a minute cause believe it or Squall and Seifer are friends…anyway As Squall is bitching about whatever to the sorceress the authorities finally make it through the crowd and he has to respect the law think about it he can’t even walk in the Generals house…huhhh… Does anyone remember the movie previews for Final Fantasy VIII which quickly changed to “The Spirits Within” I was pissed…anyway but Final Fantasy VIII or like all of them where original script and proly would have made great novels…and one more thing this was the last Final Fantasy made by the original people and is a very diverse game…furthermore how do you know its a game…
LeeEnfeild

….You'll understand if that might appear silly to bystanders, right?
http://rahul.choudhury.name/ Rahul

I completely understand if anything about Squall's Dead is considered silly; after all, it IS pretty silly. You'll also note we don't take ourselves too seriously – we're just having a bit of fun with this, seeing how other people feel about it and in general just hoping to add value where we can.

I personally really like the idea that a lonely teenager who feels lost in a big world and is being dragged along by events out of his control would create a safe fantasy where everything revolved around him, everyone he knew ended up somehow related and the bad guys went away. I find it very compelling as a story, so I choose to interpret the events of the game in that way. If anyone else doesn't want to do that, that's fine with me!
http://twitter.com/JMichaelShearer Jesse Shearer

You know, the fact that just about anyone who's ever played the game and thinks they want to be a writer has come up with at least a marginally better story for FF8 just goes to show how damned flawed that aspect of the game is. Seriously, when there's that much Internet work for this, how hard can it be?

The people who I feel the worst for are the ones who think the game makes sense as it is.
http://www.esotericarticles.com/ Esoteric Articles

Actually, the story does make a lot more sense than you are letting on honestly. Rinoa, without Squall to temper her, becomes Ultimecia. For those that don’t believe it, look at Rinoa’s stats through the game…at high levels she is without doubt the most powerful character. Thus, time will just continue to loop unless Rinoa and Squall get together, which is the meaning of the fairly abstract ending as it goes through all the scenarios and even the general possibility that they will get together.
http://www.esotericarticles.com/ Esoteric Articles

Actually, the story does make a lot more sense than you are letting on honestly. Rinoa, without Squall to temper her, becomes Ultimecia. For those that don’t believe it, look at Rinoa’s stats through the game…at high levels she is without doubt the most powerful character. Thus, time will just continue to loop unless Rinoa and Squall get together, which is the meaning of the fairly abstract ending as it goes through all the scenarios and even the general possibility that they will get together.
doesteovsky

This is fascinating. I love alternate interpretation — especially when it's pretty damn out there. I think we as people just all know that Final Fantasy 8 had a piss-poor story, got lost in itself trying to be sweeping and epic, and just ran headlong into this utterly confusing territory because the creators forgot how to craft a legitimate story. But this is a pretty good alternate interpretation of why it happened (because a bunch of Japanese guys getting drunk one night and the next morning waking up with a whole bunch of papers saying 'FINL FANSY 8 STORIE').

Got to applaud the effort. And hey, it's entertaining (far more so than the actual game), so good job on you guys!
memph

i see that spoony is traumatized. It really seemd like he didn't want to play the game. But he did, for the fans. And now some of em are still picking on spoony. Spoony… Dude….. Fuck that shit, man. I mean, no story is worth mindfucking yourself about the nonsensical story. Some people said it already: why does one need to make sense of this story. this game comes form JAPAN. (does ichi the kiler make ANY sense) Look at the stories told in anime's and other japanese games. do they make any sense at all? Usually the stories in rpg's mainly exist for some gameplay mechanic. And that is porbably the reason why ff8 is so confusing, story-wise. Because they added stuff to the game during the development. and thus had to make sense of it. (like the whole card playing game)

Anyway, Just leave the game as it is. (good rpg/stupid as hell storyline) dont add shit to it, to make it worth the time you've spent on it. that time is GONE….. youll never get it back…. you have to realize that youve spent 40 or so hours on a (yet another) Jrpg with a shitty story.
Paper_Banjokami

This theory really makes sense. Although it might be giving the writers too much credit, but interpreting it as such makes me enjoy the story much more, so why not? It makes the title “Final Fantasy” make sense, as well as everything else. But I don't really care about FF8 too much anyway, so whatever. Very cool read though.
ThomasFishwick

A good long time ago a friend suggested I play Final Fantasy. All I got out of it was boring level grinding, irritation, and a sub games that made no bloody sense. Re-watching your FF 8 reviews is always good fun. I could buy this explanation as it's an explanation. It might be on par with Jaws's Voodoo Shark theory but it one way to explain it.
The Voodoo shark idea was in the novelisation of Jaws IV The Revenge. The point being that a Voodoo curse is responsible for why the shark hunted down and killed the family. It's complete and total rubbish but at least its an explination rather than a “what the hell is going on”
http://www.facebook.com/people/Havard-Tepes-Dracule/100000433315795 Havard Tepes Dracule

But then what happens in the real world? the villans win? and if he died than why was he in kingdom hearts?
Sexual_Tyrannosaurus

I like my theory that Squall died much earlier in the game right before the prom. Seeing the futility of human existence, and out of a desire to get a whole yearbook page to himself. He takes a bunch of Advil cause he is a wuss and slits his wrist in the dorm bathrooms, the rest is just massive blood loss.
http://www.facebook.com/Slothboyadvance Matt Bahr

It's a very interesting theory, but I can't say I agree with it. Too much lies on speculation and there are a few holes. But don't get me wrong, it's very creative and it definitely gets people thinking outside of the box. It reminds me of the Zelda timeline theories.
Sexual_Tyrannosaurus

That's a fine pipe sir, and I salute you.
http://www.facebook.com/mr.JamesEdwardClark James Edward Clark

both examples of other stories with crackpot theories like that are both movies based on short stories by Philp K. Dick.
Not sure what the point of me pointing that out is -I just really like PKD
http://www.facebook.com/people/Georg-Veramme/719603017 Georg Veramme

At least FF9 made more sense……
SignNinja

Wow, some fanboys will never ever die. Look just accept it, FF8 sucked, there's no excuses for it, just leave it at that. Spoony didn't like it, I didn't like it, a lot of people didn't like it. Hell, the reason a lot of people keep defending it to hell is because they got a huge virgin boner over FF7 and will take up their buster swords and gunblades to make everyone still think that Final Fantasy is awesome and is the only game worth playing. These are the same people who go out and buy Dirge of Cerberus and play it for weeks hoping beyond hope that PS3 will deliver Final Fantasy 7 again in hd. Get over it, FF7 was mediocre, FF8 sucked.
http://bluehighwind.blogspot.com/ BlueHighwind

(The comments are acting weird, I don't know if my comment got through, forgive me if I this is actually a double-post.)

Actually back when I was at the Final Fantasy wiki I came up with a theory extremely similar to this one, because the story wasn't THAT bad right up until Squall's survived the ice shard. Personally, I just abandoned the game around the end of disc 2 because I just couldn't be bothered with the story or the battle system anymore. My favorite character was Edea, and she was just written out of the plot once you return to Earth after your ridiculous space adventure.

Anyway, what I really like about this idea is a the side logic to get out of it. Squall imagines Edea, his murderer, to be a motherly figure in his life as the “Matron” of the Orphanage. In essence, he wants to be mothered by the person who murders him. Despite being a loner at heart, he envisions a world where everybody around him was just one big family in the past and become one once again. Then of course there's the love story with Rinoa, which is a fairly pedestrian fantasy, but still revealing much about Squall's character. These fantasies make him into a much deeper and more complicated character than anything Square Enix could possibly put together.

Retcon, please?
Dorran844221

Yeah, I've got to go with you on this one, Spoony. On the one hand, it's giving the writers a bit more credit than they deserve, and on the other hand, even if it is true, it makes the whole story absolutely pointless. I've actually heard similar explanations for NGE – less that it's a series of mental death throes, but that the entire series is just Shinji's descent into madness.
http://rahul.choudhury.name/ Rahul

I never played Dirge of Cerberus, think the entire Compilation of project was a waste of time, and have monologued frequently at squarehaven.com about the ridiculousness of expecting a PS3 incarnation of FFVII. Your stereotypes do not hold, sir.
CalebTheTimeTraveler

You Could Look at it this way: if the Sorceress does fuck up time in a way that Squall could only explain so simply in his mind, maybe his mind holds some power over helping to destroy whatever it is that was ultimately causing the problem. I've seen worse and more improbable things in much better Anime that I actually like.
Of course, I doubt any of this is the actual way it was intended, but still, it's an interesting thing to think about. Evangelion after all, doesn't have an intended ending, it's entirely up to the watcher to explain what it means. Again, I doubt this is what this is, but well, you could argue at the same time that interpretation of a watcher is as important as the message of the writer.
It still doesn't make up for the Magic Drawing system. It never will. You can Gainax as much as you want, but damn, if you make a shitty game engine, it doesn't make up for it.
topopox

At least FF8 didn't had a sucking shit trash battle system as 9 had….
Oh well, sorry It's just that I hate 9 much more than 8 xD

Anonymous

Seriously? IX is my favorite in the entire freaking series.
Anonymous

Seriously? IX is my favorite in the entire freaking series.

Anonymous

You can of course interpret it this way. Only if you agree with that literary theory with considers the writer as dead, leaving interpretation at the reader’s mind. This way it basically says you are killing gigant caterpillars in the mind of a very emo guy. Considering the existence of the writers, however, only means that they fucking smoke something when they wrote this retarded plot. Either way it’s lame.
Anonymous

You can of course interpret it this way. Only if you agree with that literary theory with considers the writer as dead, leaving interpretation at the reader’s mind. This way it basically says you are killing gigant caterpillars in the mind of a very emo guy. Considering the existence of the writers, however, only means that they fucking smoke something when they wrote this retarded plot. Either way it’s lame.
murderouscow

I'm pretty sure that Squall died anyway when Burton blew him up. I don't see hwo this is really an issue.

My point being: FF8 totally blows balls.
http://www.facebook.com/professorskar Lee Erickson

If you play “Eyes on Me” backwards, it says “Squall is dead, miss him, miss him”

Also, Tony Soprano didn't die in the finale…nothing happened. Making something up as a coping mechanism doesn't mean it happened, it means what actually happened sucked :p

Anonymous

Err… I don’t really want to get flamed or anything, but the information stated above is correct. In the song, “Eyes on me” when it is played backwards at a certain point it starts saying “Even though… Squall is dead, I miss him.”

Heres a link to the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDImArYZ6f0

http://rahul.choudhury.name/ Rahul

Because being in Kingdom Hearts is somehow canonical to the Final Fantasy
VIII storyline?

In A Serious Man, the second rabbi tells a story about a dentist who has a
patient with strange engravings on his teeth. At the end the main character
asks “So what happened with the guy with the teeth, did the dentist ever
find out?”, and the rabbi says “Who cares?”

http://www.facebook.com/people/Havard-Tepes-Dracule/100000433315795 Havard Tepes Dracule

uhh…okay
http://www.facebook.com/people/Havard-Tepes-Dracule/100000433315795 Havard Tepes Dracule

uhh…okay

http://www.saisasylum.com/ Sai

Eh fan theories like this are harmless and pretty fun, so long as the people theorizing don't take them seriously.

For example I have a theory that in Fable 2 Theresa knows your sister is going to die (she's a damn psychic), lets it happen to give you motivation to kill Lucien, waits for him to build the Black Spire and then manipulates you into taking him out so she can seize the Spire for herself without having to lift a finger. Probably not true (I was hoping some of the DLC would go this way nevertheless) but it would definitely add alot of oomph to the story.
http://twitter.com/getintheVandell Vandell

Well, they obviously put more thought into this than Square did.
Andrew

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the whole time-travelling sorceress shtick all come up post Squall-kabob? For all that Squall knew at the time, wasn't it just an assassination attempt on a foreign dictator that was threatening their country? A bunch of untrained, untalented pissant mercenaries attack a foreign national and it fails. Doesn't seem so far-fetched to me…
http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Blayney/683346875 Michael Blayney

Final Fantasy 8's story makes far more sense when you drink whilst playing. I may have shaved a decade off my liver's lifespan, but at least I… finished Final Fantasy 8.

I hate my life.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Joe-Ottoson/100000693361189 Joe Ottoson

I think that such a theory actually gives the writers less credit than they deserve. If they were hoping that people would see two frames of CGI and “figure this out” then they were at best trying their damnedest to troll anyone who bothered to play the game all the way through.

LOL it was a dream! Fade to black! This does not constitute a better story. This is dark and stormy night level garbage.
AyumuNorumi

I don't know aliens…The Queen Of Cards AND A WREAKED SPACE SHIP IN TIME COMPRESSION…The release of a new series called V wear there peace embassators wear SeeD canidate uniforms with video survalence in them…it makes sence in my mind just getting the point across to some one else (if other people exist) will cause Power Suit auto pilot failure and seeing out the Visor can kill me…
http://www.facebook.com/people/Joe-Ottoson/100000693361189 Joe Ottoson

The intended plot? Or are you just going by Spoony's let's play? http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/197343…

Anonymous

Oh, Im not basing my opinion on spoonys post alone. I did read the webpage linked in his post. It certainly is an
interesting interpretation of the plot however as I said i dont believe it was the developers intent and that the author of said article is over analyzing the story.

It does make for a far more interesting plot tho.
Anonymous

Oh, Im not basing my opinion on spoonys post alone. I did read the webpage linked in his post. It certainly is an
interesting interpretation of the plot however as I said i dont believe it was the developers intent and that the author of said article is over analyzing the story.

It does make for a far more interesting plot tho.

capthavic

I think it's more like they wrote themselves into a corner and in trying to desperatly make sense of it all they just made it worse. After all there is plenty of idiotic nonsense before he gets impailed.

And even if the theory is right then everything you've done is STILL pointless!
Anonymous

I actually haven’t played the game all the way through myself. I had stopped at around the time Spoony started wrapping up the game in the final episode. (1/3 of the way through Disk 2?) So as I’m reading through that page, I’m also seeing the ending for the first time. And I have to say, seeing the first half of that ending for the first time and with the perspective from that theory made me really, REALLY depressed.
Anonymous

I actually haven’t played the game all the way through myself. I had stopped at around the time Spoony started wrapping up the game in the final episode. (1/3 of the way through Disk 2?) So as I’m reading through that page, I’m also seeing the ending for the first time. And I have to say, seeing the first half of that ending for the first time and with the perspective from that theory made me really, REALLY depressed.
landofunk

I hated this game so much that I threw out the PC version in the garbage and after checking online on amazon..they are selling it for over $50..and you know what? I DON'T CARE!! This game was so horrendously bad (IMO :P) that I don't even care about going through the hassle of trying to sell it online..It's Gone!! I never have to look at those discs again and think “Wow..that was a bad idea. Buying that crap game.”
Quicksilver_the_Archangel

This reminds me of a story my friend's college professor brought up.

He made this long presentation about why Paul (I think it was Paul… whichever one is supposed to be dead) from the Beatles was dead. He used tons of song clips, imagery analysis of covers, quoted sources, and it all sounded like a pretty good argument. Then, he said that there was only one conclusion to be taken from all this evidence: that Paul was alive. Because he still is, regardless of how much bullshit people throw into the theory that he's dead.

I don't mind people coming up with alternate plot/fix-it ideas (lord knows I've come up with some) but it just seems like pointless overanalysis. You can make yourself believe anything, but that doesn't make it true.
http://www.facebook.com/heirofsparda Nate Anderson

After reading the article I can only figure that the writer of the article was expecting a realistic setting from a game with FANTASY in the title, and that's just stupid.

Anonymous

Gee, that sounds familiar. Like a certain critic who bitched about the Gunblade being unrealistic and dumb.

anunreliableperson

This reminds me of that Comatose Ash Ketchum theory. Though I suppose the same sort of thing could be said of any piece of fiction where the protagonist wins against all odds
JerryPac

Here's my theory on Final Fantasy VIII's plot. I think it's pretty solid.

The whole game takes place in the a fictional world that's being written by a twenty two year-old virgin. It's his expression of all his angst over what he feels are his lost teenage years. After disc one he actually gets a girlfriend and gets laid at that point he realizes what a whiny load of bullshit it was and he decides to kill off his character that once represented himself. At that point he gets a new computer and the old one is handed down to his little thirteen year old brother who finds the story and decides to continue it on from that point.
Poipoi

This is merely another stupid theory for ff8. Its as dumb as the one where they think Rinoa is the Future sorceress Ultimecia. Even that theory has the huge holes of : she comes about generations in the future and Rinoa knew who Ellone was while Ultimecia only knew of her name.

FF8 is not a world that works on logic. Keep in mind everytime you cast ice spells, the ice doesn't stick around. Some games the ice seems to errupt from inside the target's body. Yet, no holes appear after. There was no need to kill Squall yet anyway, when she wanted someone to interrogate. Plus, its a game. Its not real.

This theory though is amusing at most but trying to find logic in a game that has none.
masseyguy

So what there saying is squall dies, and the rest of the game is his fantasy as he is dying? Makes a lot more sense when you put it that way… but is that what they were really going for or what the fanboys say it is to make sense out of a weird story?
StealthKnight

To be fair, they probably treated Squall's wound with magic. Also it might have missed his left lung and hit near is shulder so it would be possible for him to survive it. People survive being shot in the head, have a pipe go through half of your brain, shot numerous times and live so Squall surviving is possible.
AyumuNorumi

I checked out the “Squall's Dead” page…and I stopped reading it when I got to the MOOMBAS line…okay teenagers summoning the devil crazy monsters everywhere PHUCKING DOG ROCKET LAUNCHERS…thats all normal…but oh no a moomba makes it obvious that its a dream… Hey I know what about that bitch idk here name she's at like court houses usually on the front of a boat blind folded in one hand she has a scale and in the other hand she has A PHUCKING SWORD…makes the opening of Final Fantasy VIII make just a little sence Edea flying sword…what about the time the game was release 1999 mark of the beast? does that ring a bell? Check out the cover of the 1999 February issue of NEXT GENERATION magazine the scar is the wrong way and Squall has a mako glow to in his eyes oh and and what about the Pizza Hut demo disc where Seifer leads the attack on the X-ATM092 thats right a 4 group party and he doesn't fight also Rinoa, Zell, and Squall are in street close for the exam and Rinoa can summon Leviathan…of course there is a lot of dream sequencing THE DREAM CAST CAME OUT THAT YEAR…geez this may be a rant but The interview in the NEXT GENERATION magazine is worth reading…maybe its a map of how society works, its problems and ways to fix it…I've said to much…but the movie DAVE is actually quit relivant our world can be fixed quickly but checking a box off every 8 years needs to stop…heres a thought I am getting unstoppable ads in my mailbox waste of paper goes straight in the garbage why does that exist when people cant even eat yaknow…FINAL FANTASY ATE lol anyway its a master peice a playable novel with graphics that don't make me wanna puke…I can't stand new video games at least there are reviews on them which Noah is awesome at doing…oh I had this nightmare about a little girl being hit by a train I think that might be a link to Ultimecia's fear of Doom Train… I mean are your trying to say Could Strife is dead because it ends with Aeris walking in the market??? THE PHUCK… There not supposed to make complete sence come on Laguna a journalist they were trying to bring back story telling. Okay you want Final Fantasy VIII to make total total 100% sence? WATCH SPOONEY'S REVEIW!
Jillers

So either you accomplish nothing by creating a time loop, or you solve nothing by playing a stupid dream of a dying man. Either way the game's a waste of time, yes?
batlashes

Does this mean that Hollow Bastion from Kingdom Hearts is the afterlife? That's where we see Squall next, inexplicably voiced by David Borebananas
candacereilly

Squall is dead? I spent so many hours of my childhood life walking the steps of a dead man? WTF? I mean if Squall was supposed to be dead after Edea throws some sort of ice thingy at him then why is there so much stuff that doesn't make sense before that happened? Like for one instance that Spoony brought up that Edea recruited Seifer and then everyone says that Seifer is probably a dead man. That makes no sense. If the “Squall is dead” theory is true then all the plot holes in the first disk would mean that Squall was dead right when we first played FFVIII.
abyssion1337

Say what you will about FFVIII at least the Chrono Trigger has proven that SquarEnix can do time travel well
HypnoticGenes

You know. By the end of the first disc I was rooting for the sorceress. So she kills Squall, and destroys time. Its all good by me.
Nexus_Series

Two words: Kazushige Nojima

Seriously, this guy had the worst track record for Final Fantasy (VIII, X, X-2, Advent Children). I have no idea why Kitase let this guy write for so long. Nojima even freely admitted he made a lot of decisions in the “smoking room”. Explains a lot, don't it?
mahametta

It's not a bad theory, but again, as stated previously, it makes the huge assumption that the first disc has no plot holes or issues with its own continuity or any issues with general common sense at all. They also assume that Square were really trying to tell a story that made sense, as opposed to just using writing as filler between all the purty (for the time, anyway) lil pictures on the screen.

I have my own theory as to FFVIII's plot. I call it the “Fanwanking Marketing Theory.” As Spoony himself pointed out, FFVII changed everything, and brought in a whole new type of fanbase to the franchise. Seeing a hit they couldn't have possibly predicted and understanding the need to strike while the iron is hot, Square panicked and just decided to make a game that took everything fans ranted about and overdo it. Let's be honest for a moment. What do FFVII fans really rant and rave about? Fangirls collectively squee in multiple tweengasms at the sight of effeminate brooding jerkoffs like Cloud, Vincent, and Sephiroth, fanboys enjoyed the prospect of being able to vicariously score a girl WAY out of their league in real life in the form of Yuffie, Tifa, or Aeris, and other assorted nutjobs praised the extensive customization via the Materia system and the unique mini-games intended to break up the monotony of playing a VIDEO GAME! It didn't matter that the game itself had an excess of characters and limited development for even half of them, and had a plot that if just taken in summary is downright laughable. Not saying that FFVII is a bad game (I love it actually), but this what really garnered huge fan response. Square's marketing took this, and dumped it on the development team, and said, “if you value your paycheck, insert all of these things and DOUBLE THEM!” And lo and behold, what did we get in FFVIII: an effeminate angst-ridden teenage boy winding up with a girl who in real life wouldn't even hand him the restraining order in person, a leveling system so customizable and open to possibility that it seemed to just scream at statisticians everywhere, “just you TRY to calculate the amount of possible combinations, biotch!”, and a pointless mini-game in the form of Triple Triad. They probably figured as long as they kept the fanwanking up that the gaming community would overlook the hammy deep-as-a-child's-wading pool dialogue, pathetic attempt to characterize a developing romance, absolutely ridiculous plot, and criminally counter-intuitive leveling and ability management system. And for many, it worked.

More or less, Square (much like the producers of the Twilight films) knew when they were making the game that it didn't have to make sense or even have a plot at all to make the game a hit: just keep them dazed with pretty people doing insanely stupid shit and they won't say anything. And I give the people who came up with the Squall is Dead theory points for taking the time and really picking out specific evidence, but I think that I agree with Spoony that what's really going on with them is trying to insert logic where there was none to begin with. But, considering the huge disappointment that FFVIII is compared to seven games preceding it or even the first to immediately succeed it, I'd probably have done the same thing, if only to make the pain just go away a LITTLE.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Christopher-Alden/100000469737019 Christopher Alden

Suddenly, it all comes together and makes some sense.
DeathsHead419

Oh, now it all adds up. It was SUPPOSED to be a confusing, nonsensical convoluded mess! How interesting…
http://twitter.com/Dawmusic David Andrew Wiebe

In a flurry of zeal, I ended up coming up with a theory of my own concerning Final Fantasy VIII: http://arcticsunburn.com/2010/02/re-squalls-dea…
thegreatmidday

Hi SPOONY,

Of course it makes sense!

Maybe you don't get it. The name of the game is ''FINAL FANTASY'', so, in this FF, the ''final'' fantasy can be Squall's ''last fantasy'' hes last moments of ''fantasy'', of delirium. You say that if it was like this the main plot (the witch), would be lost, but, maybe you don't get that the main plot is the ''final fantasy'', the plot is Squall's dreams, moments before his death. So the witch and everything else ''doesn't matter'' as soon as hes life ceases. Before Squall's death, he gains experiences and characters that will be later in game the object of his dreams, like the girl he never kissed, the guy that he hates, and everything else.
sniktbub

Aaaand you're a retard…unless you're joking. They don't make a stupid play on words out of their title, or try to connect it to the games, it's only called Final Fantasy because the first game would have been Square's last had it not sold well. Since it DID sell, they just stuck with the name.

I really hope you're trolling, because your idea is ridiculous. Face it, FF8 is just plain shit because the writers were stoned out of their minds and had no fucking idea how to tell a decent story.
membrane

I love this idea. Next time I have an argument with a fan-boy/girl I'm gonna mess them up with this.
assiman

I really like this Squall is dead idea, but unfortunately, that's not what square intended. As Spoony said; “Look, it’s cute. I’m proud that you came up with it, and really, it’s better than what was intended”.

Someone should actually make a game like this, you know, where the lead character is dead 3/4 of the game time.
They Call Me The Fizz

Actually one recent release uses this ploy as a major plot element

I don't want to spoil which game it is but let's just say that it's far from comedic

Anonymous

A movie from 1990 uses this plot. I believe it’s the first, otherwise one of the first: Jacob’s Ladder with Tim Robbins and directed by Adrian Lyne – which inspired the Silent Hill series.

ToveriJuri

X wasn't that bad. The gaming world is nice, some of the characters are ok and the story tries to be good(it's not good, but it's tolerable)
mystbayne

u know what… i blame spoony for this madness. if he didn't play through FFVIII none of this would be happening. but no he had to do FFVIII and now everyone remembers that damn abomination of a game. DAMN YOU SPOONY!!! and damn Dr. Insano for putting you up to this madness.
SethTheXenocide

This approach is better than the original story (Yes, I played the bloody thing too years ago) and it obviously took some thought, but I personally just don't perscribe to the theory. I actually feel a little less dead on the inside when people do things like this and actually back it up with evidence.

As someone about to head into a PhD program for English, and who considers video games to be an art form, I love seeing literary analysis of a game's plot. I mean, if video games are ever going to be considered as art by the majority of the public you have to hold it to the same standards and judgement that you do to other art forms. I'm of course not saying that every game without an amazing plot is bad (Gears of War is a good example, fun gameply and pretty as hell but rock stupid in the story department), or that every game with great writing is a master piece (the original .hack// Quartet had a story that made you want to keep on playing, but dear GOD the gameplay was atrocious), but good writing and good gameplay elevates a game from something you just waste a few hours on to a truly gratifying experience.

Final Fantasy VIII is not such an experience, but doing a solid analysis of it is a positive push foward.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Andres-Ortiz/1124227273 Andres Ortiz

I don`t care about theories right now is a fucking game that i can`t say i hate like you do mr spoony, is not great but i don`t think is that bad like you put it in your reviews lol whatever the only thing that i`, concerned about is FACELESS SQUALL!!! wtf was that someone can explain why i`m going to have nightmares this night?
http://www.esotericarticles.com/ Esoteric Articles

You are incorrect.

Here is how Final Fantasy 8 works: Squall and Rinoa are both displeased with the world. Squall responds by becoming extremely introverted and ultra-realistic about the world, whereas Rinoa responds in an extraverted manner by trying to change the world aggressively with plans that are really far fetched. Rinoa is also a sorceress who is growing increasingly in power. If Squall doesn't basically get with Rinoa so as to temper her, Rinoa becomes the ultimate tyrant and thus leads to Ultimecia. This is the case even if Rinoa 'dies', as a sorceress cannot die without passing on their powers. At the end of the game time keeps repeatedly looping until the scenario in which Rinoa and Squall are together comes to be, which means that ultimecia wont cause the time loop.

I think it is a pretty good plot overall.
http://www.facebook.com/SuperSunshine21 ダールダニエル

The story of FFVIII, turning into a smårgåsbord of different interpretations similar to that which is down to various religious texts. Wonderful.
Poipoi

… You just quoted the Rinoa is Ultimecia theory. -.-''' Which is clearly not even a valid theory.

1. Ultimecia is a few generations ahead in the future
2. Ultimecia didn't know who Ellone was aside her name was the name of a machine made from Odine's work.
3. Rinoa meets Ellone so she would have know who Ellone was.
4. The future is still going to happen. Even though they defeated Ultimecia, in a few generations she will be born
5. I must truly have no life to be posting this. ;.; pity me.
6. Just because you are a sorceress, doesn't mean you are immortal. True Ultimecia could screw with time but she couldn't stop herself from aging. Not sure how the time compression would have worked on her. Doesn't matter anymore as they stop it.

The conclusion: stop trying to find sense in this game.
Paper_Banjokami

The faceless Squall is explained right below (or maybe above) the picture. Go back and actually read the “Squall's Dead” theory.
Paper_Banjokami

That theory has even less evidence than the “Squall's Dead” theory. Like how the hell could you prove that any of that happen?

Or was that some piece of satire? If so… well played.
walmor

Shit, disbelief suspension or not, all of you who played FF8 (being Hardcore otaku fans or not) must agree that the carrying of the game drastically – if not completely – changed after the first CD, and that most of the most pointless and batshit-insane moments and plot-twists happened AFTER the second CD, and the theory fits well in these holes. This theory makes sense, but i can agree with Spoony that this may only be some ramblin of a fan's imagination and it doesn't change at all the fact that the game's plot is still completely insane even for the standards that we were already expecting to see in a game of the series.
My opinion? This theory is worth of some attention, being you a die-hard fan or a total hater like spoony is. This theory is good to give another perspective to a confuse love story that FF8 is and, if you hated the game, it suceeds in giving a more clever face to the plot than the ludacris face that we saw on the game

Oh, and sorry if some parts are a bit confusing, my english isn't that good yet.
ScutigeraColeoptrata

I like this theory, and I would be happy if Squareenix came out and retconned the game to actually have this be what happens in FF8. A lot of little things make more sense this way too, such as the 'waiting' in quotations during the opening cinematic.

Squall also becomes a much deeper and more powerful character if you consider the events after disk one to all be part of his dying dream. Suddenly the player doesn't have to worry about all the nigh impossible coincidences and absurd plot points in the game, and can instead examine the increasingly surreal storyline through a metaphorical gaze, much like one does when playing Silent Hill.
ScutigeraColeoptrata

I like this interpretation, and would be quite happy if Squareenix actually retconned the game to make it official. The open ended question of who the sorceress really is, why Seifer is working for her, and just what in the world is REALLY going on seems pretty interesting to me. The idea that the story shifts to the viewpoint of a lowly SeeD graduate's internal dream to explain everything does give the story a fascinating new focus, as well as an eerie new dimension to everything that happens after the first disk. We truly learn about everything about the game's world through the eyes of the main character.

While I don't think this is really what the writers were going for, the ending DOES make a lot more sense if it is interpreted as a dying vision. I also found it very disturbing, and suggestive of tragedy.
http://twitter.com/joethulhu Joe Hammons

FFX wasn't bad, possibly the worst RPG ever made aside from X-2?

News to me.
http://twitter.com/joethulhu Joe Hammons

No one likes Kingdom Hearts besides stupid fangirls, so I doubt it really has any relation to FF8 other then Squall.

It still makes me shudder, though…

“Leon”… *shiver*
sifer2

I agree with Spoony I think were giving the writers of FF8 WAY too much credit to even think this is what they intended. I mean honestly even before Squall died crazy **** was already happening in this game. Like the Devil in that pot or the zombie clone of the President dude on the train. Face it the writers of FF8 were just a little bit high on drugs that's all. Squall “dying” was just supposed to shock you while you fumbled for Disc 2 lol.

But all things considered if you crave a deeper story then I guess this theory might satisfy you better than what was offered.
Eniliad

I also really like the idea of Squall being dead; true it doesn't answer *all* of the weird plot elements in the game, but it certainly does answer, say, 80% of them in my opinion, especially the deux ex machina elements (Ragnarok anyone?) or the just totally out-there moments, not to mention how the whole plot works even though it's centered basically on pure nonsense.

As for the “suspension of disbelief” points – I would like to say that I personally can suspend my disbelief a lot in stories. Perhaps more than some people are. I'm willing to accept a lot of the inane happenings in movies, books and games, if only because “they make sense from the perspective of that universe.” Hell, I was even able to accept a lot of the stupidity shown in Final Fantasy X… I would even go so far as to say that I enjoyed most of the story, despite the other elements of that game which pisses me off even to this day. (Honestly, if I were to review FFX, my feelings are so mixed that it'd be at least twice as long as Spoony's FF8 review, in order to do justice to what I do and don't like about the game.)

However, there's a limit to how well I can suspend my disbelief, and usually my suspension snaps after a couple conditions are met. The first is that the game(s) break their own logic set up in their universe. Here's an example: I am a big fan of the Jedi Knight series for the PC made by LucasArts (isn't the expanded universe infinitely better than the movies? I think so). Arguably my favorite game in that series is Jedi Outcast, in which the hero learns both Light and Dark side magic, struggles with his internal emotions which go against everything he's learned about the force, and comes out as a sort of Neutral Good – He uses both sides of the force and tends to go against authority, but is ultimately a good guy. In the next game, Academy, the makers piss all over that by making it so that if you select Dark Side powers, Luke Skywalker actually lectures you, worrying that you'll fall to the dark side because you picked Force Choke instead of Mind Trick for a couple levels. Clearly Luke learned nothing from Katarn's epic adventure in the last game – which he should have learned because he's responsible for training the next generation of Knights. It's BS.

The other time my suspension of disbelief breaks is when something is different for difference' sake. For example, there are certain conventions that we have come to expect when playing adventure games. Life is represented in HP (or for more realistic games, mini HP for body parts), currency is expressed in gold, etc. If you call a Hit Point a Smeerp (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Call…) for no other reason than because you can, all it does is remind me I'm playing a game. I don't get more immersed in a game that does this, I just get confused.

Also, even in a fantasy realm we kind of have to make connections to the real world in order to make sense of what we're doing. Machines in games, for example, tend to work in a similar fashion to real world machines, even if there's a twist thrown in to make it different. For example, taking a monster that generates electricity and using it to power a bases' power. That's cool, and it's something I can understand. It's also realistic in that it's like a Power Plant – something that, as a denizen of the real world, I can wrap my brain around its function and purpose.

To take a similar example from Final Fantasy… well, let's use X again for the hell of it, the boat that you travel on near the beginning of the game is powered by chocobos on giant hamster wheels. Sure, it's ridiculous when you think about it from the perspective of the real world, but in a world where electric power doesn't exist (because of religious aversion, but whatever), and these giant birds are a reliable commodity, I can see the energy they generate being used to generate electric power (at least to a small degree). Yes, it's a heavy suspension of disbelief, but I can understand it and work with it.

I can even accept the metaphysical concept of Drawing Magic that Spoony could not; sure, it doesn't make sense, but neither does casting spells using a abstract concept like MP, and I can get behind it. I can just accept that it's another spell or ability used in the game. Ho hum. However, there were moments in FF8 (and I did play it after watching Spoony's review; I didn't find it as bad as he did but it's still by far not a game I enjoyed playing too much) that were just so unusual, that made so little sense, that even I couldn't accept them. A good example would be the stupidity of the guards after the SeeDs get captured. Spoony covered this, but it bears repeating: We are dealing with human guards here. They should have the intelligence not to fall for such a ridiculous ruse that the inmates are feeding them.

Sorry for the length of my post; I'll get to the point: Don't say that we're losing suspension of disbelief, or that it will cause the end of gaming and creativity. I promise, we haven't lost it… we just want something that at least has the slightest connection to reality so we can understand and accept it. Just work with us a little bit, and we'll run with it.
deserteagle

This kind of theory is completely ludicrous. The authors never intended the story to be this way; and considering all of the other screw-ups and ludicrousness plot points in the story Squall getting impaled is more easily accepted as being a fantasy setting where the dead can be risen and the injured can be healed; or more cynically, the writer's simply did not care. This kind of fan-theory can, in fact, be applied to any story to have the story make more sense by having it make no sense at all. Unless the writers give some clear hint or indication that this is a possibility; such theories should be thrown out as gobbledygook.
http://www.esotericarticles.com/ Esoteric Articles

There is some strong evidence in favour of the view really, it is almost a given. How does Ultimecia end up with a summon called Griever, precisely the name of Squall's ring? Why does she have all the summons that the party had (admittedly evil versions)? Sorceress' can at the very least live many generations, for example Adel of Esthar. Also, in almost all ways she is the inverse of Rinoa, thus her negative repressed emotions. However, this whole thing is shown very clearly in the ending in which all the scenarios Squall and Rinoa won't get together are played out, such as her dying in space or her being with seifer, on and on. Think of it like a 'while, do' loop that basically equals 'While rinoa and squall arent together, do Ultimecia scenario”.

It really does make sense, I am not particularly vulnerable to far out theories but I think this one is spot on and came to the conclusion by myself without having read it from others. Also, I think a lot of the problems with it you are pointing out are to do with time travel as a plot device and could also be pointed out in any of the Terminator movies. Regardless, I am not changing my mind so whatever.
ScutigeraColeoptrata

I can entertain the possibility that someone on the design team may have come up with this idea at some point, which helps to explain the strange ending to the game from the final boss fight on. Of course, the official stance from Squareenix appears to be that the game should be taken at face value.
theshamster

Apparently, Edea used a 'illusion' spell on Squall, so he's not really dead.

Then again, I never liked him, he reminded me too much of myself when I was a teenager…all whiney and emo.

DIE, Squall! DIE!
ScutigeraColeoptrata

“You would know that you are not dreaming”

Hmmm….nah!
kungfuman316

You know the sad thing? As effed up as the storyline is, I still enjoyed *playing* this game. I think once the Rinoa-Squall love thing hit I just threw a lot of the plot out and focused on the gameplay, grinding myself to 100 right from the getgo and going to town on hard as hell enemies and bosses. Keep in mind to that point I'd just come off of FF7, which effectively rewarded you for maxing out your party by making every fight feel like easy mode (even Safer Sephiroth went down in two attacks). Here the game put up a fight, made me want to go at it, and I enjoyed it. I wanted to fight a boss that pummeled the arena while I tore into them, and I wanted to strategize against their full might. The closest VII got with that were the extra Weapon bosses, which were added after the game's initial release. Gee I wonder why? And hell I originally *hated* VIII with a passion…till I said “hell with it” to the story, dug into the micromanagement and just had fun.

Does that make VIII a great game? No, it doesn't. VIII is one seriously messed up story in some regards but hell, they all are. Since 7 the series has been so odd with the storytelling they've put together whole books just to explain the missing bits in the plots and why this or that happens. So what does that make VIII?

A game that can be enjoyed and considered “good enough”. It's not a “guilty pleasure”, it's a game you play to enjoy, And one with some decent mechanics.

And it did have some gems too, even if they were in a mire of shit. Squall as a character had his moments, and actually grew as a character. I like that in fiction, even if the supporting story makes me want to strangle it. It beats realizing you're playing a dead man, or watching a summoner turn into a hot pants-wearing Charlie's Angel, or so on. Squall realizes he's a douche, hates himself for it, and man's up to save the world. As for the rest of the cast, oddly if you paid attention you cared a little for what happened to some of them.

VIII was a good experience for me. Whether or not it's a good game is up to your interpretation, but it's not a bad one. We've seen bad games people: they're unplayable bugfests, storybooks with repetitive on rails “gameplay” segments to pause between the plot, and so forth. If you play it to the end, even if you have some tremendous bug up your butt for the storyline, chances are something in there was worth enjoying. Otherwise why play it?

I paid $20 for this for the PC new. I can safely say I don't regret it, which is something I can't say for a lot of the stuff I've bought for more recent systems people have shouted up and down “It's great!” and carried a $60 price tag.
kallikanzarid

>> He’s dead. The dream is ultimately meaningless. Nothing really happens in it that impacts the “real” world. Maybe Squall gets some internal closure, but so what?

BTW, why does it matter to you if something happens in Squall's 'real world' or not? It's still all fiction!
archedgar

I agree 100% with spoony.

The Squall's dead website posts some interesting logical challenges to those of us who accept the terrible story that FF8 tells. However, ultimately, the theory falls flat because it gives FF8 WAY too much credit, especially when published interviews with the developers and their take on the story completely supports the “In game” story and immediately shuts down the “Squall's Dead” theory.

Spoony 1
Squall's Dead 0
Strelnikov

This is just like the last season of “Magnum P.I.”; fans hated what was going on with the show so badly, they thought that Selleck's character had been killed (there was a cliffhanger episode) and was somehow carrying on as a GHOST. Sometime fans of things can't understand WHY things happen, so bullshit retcon horsecrap is pulled to make sense of senseless crud. And no, I'm not a fan of “Magnum”; I read that somewhere on the Internets.
korruption

Why was this game even made?
sassamura

This time, you are wrong Spoony, the theory makes sense, and you seem to have no other argument than saying “there is no plot” Come on . This is very convenient but not much creative, you should come with a better explanation if you try to discuss it's story, better than “there is no plot'' cause you feel like this.
http://rahul.choudhury.name/ Rahul

Great post, thanks!
http://rahul.choudhury.name/ Rahul

You should register bullshitretconhorsecrap.com and redirect it to
squallsdead.com!
Sephariel

I don't think this is the way the “authors” intended the story to be played out. But, if I were to play FF8 once again (played it once, and once only when it came out) I would most certainly play the game with this theory in mind. Even though what you would find yourself accomplishing is meaningless since they are just a figment of Squall's mind, it would be way more enjoyable than the shitfest that is the original storyline.
Poipoi

The theory does have some holes.

1. If the Mombas were any other fuzzy anime like creature they would have still linked them to his ring cause of being animals.
2. Norg didn't die. He went into an egg/coccon when he lost. Later the Shumi remove him from it.
3. Ice Spells never left holes. The ice spell has varied from game to game. Sometimes being blocks that appear over head to ice spikes that appear in mid air or seem to come out of said victum. Not saying it couldn't have killed him but it could have still screwed with Squall's health serious.
4. Of course, Squall is going to ponder death. Ask someone who has been in combat if that reality has ever come across their mind.
5. This is a fantasy video game. Of course, the real villain's plans don't make sense. That can be said about many villains from other video games or movies. The people who make these theories have selective memory and only choose to use what supports their ideas.

Yes I do like ff8. I admit it makes no sense. I admit the characters in it are idiots many times. I admit a few times this week I wanted to throw my psp out the bus window while playing it. Yet, I still like this game. I only wish the people who make these weird theories be honest about all the facts. This one is still better then the Rinoa is Ultimecia theory.
http://www.facebook.com/emran.ismail Emran Qadir Ismail

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
None of that theory crap is true Squall did survive his encounter with the Sorceress Edea. I love Final Fantasy VIII I think the story line is really good and I enjoyed every single moment of it.
This just as dumb when people thought Sorceress Ultimatica was Rinoa just because her GF was Griever and Squall's necklace is also called Griever.

Final Fantasy VIII kikcs ass same goes for VII,IX,X and XII
pawcanada84

To be honest I've always liked the theories that keep popping up, regardless of how pratical they are or not. I was HUGEY dissapointed wth FFVIII's story after the second disc. As weak in general as it was, I felt Edea had the potential to be a very good villain and the idea of sourceress hunting in general had potential. Of course th game is wasted poential, which is a shame in my eyes.

Anyway, the theories (in my eyes anyway) add more sense to the story than we originally had. I mean SERIOUSLY, what WAS Ultimatica's plan again?! I keep forgetting! However if she is infact the older incarnation of Riona, driven by the broken heart from Squall's death and determined to get him back (love will make you do that), maybe it's just me but suddenly time compression makes A LOT more sense.

This is an interesting theory. Perhaps not one I'd buy but kudos to the writters for thinking outside of the box.
Poipoi

lol Yeah Next thing you'll hear is Squall is really his own father. Or that Laguna is the father of both Squall and Rinoa because he once dated Julia thus making the Squall & Rinoa love thing incest.
http://twitter.com/ViciousReiven Dante Dever

Why must you insist on demeaning the game even further? Haven't you done enough damage already?
My God I love you Spoony, but every time you bring up FFVIII I just want to beat the living hell out of you.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Allison-Hanna/1460142119 Allison Hanna

Unless the creators of the game distinctly said that's how the game was supposed to play out, it's just a silly effort to make the game out to be more than it is. This isn't An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge, this is a bad Final Fantasy game.
Caelan

The story might make more sense in Japanese. All though, positive thinking trusting in friendship so is very Anime that I can see that as being the correct translation. (Just look at the first pokemon movie where ash just jumps between two attackers and gets blasted only to be saved a moment later by the tears of pokemon.) Maybe it's a culture thing. Besides, if Squall had died, how did he appear in Kingdom hearts? ;) Not to mention Cloud has gotten FAR more mortal lingeries then ended up completely fine after. I swear, cutting Clouds head off wouldn't kill him.
TheFeydakin

Eeees DEED!
robotpanda

Umm, isn't it a video game and not real life? It doesn't have to make perfect sense. It reminds me of a farside cartoon where the male mosquito says to his wife as he takes off his jacket, “Wheh what a day i must have spread maleria across half the country!” Many people wrote in to point out that the female mosquito is the one that bites, yet none seemed to have a problem with the fact that they spoke English, wore clothes, etc. Does is it really make sense that Galbadia uses motorcycles flying through the air to attack the garden? No. Is it awesome? Yes. Sometimes, in order to really capture the most potential something has, you have to break the boundaries of reality.
RPGaholic

I remember reading a very similar theory for Pokemon, about how he was supposedly really in a coma after being hit by a bike, with Brock representing Ash's post-puberty urges, but never getting anywhere because he never had “the talk.” It also tried to then reason why there were so many Officer Jennys and Nurse Joys, and that Jessie & James were some form of his psyche that he was always having to overcome, that if they ever truly won, he'd realize he was in the coma and start to come out of it or some such thing. All I can say is there are people out there who have way too much time on their hands.
TheFeydakin

What the hell? Where did my comment go? :/
http://twitter.com/LikChan Lik Chan

wow, GAFfers are invading Spoony's site. this scares me ;)
midevalexponents2sqr

I've never played Final Fantasy 8, nor will I ever. I'm not a hard-core gamer like pretty much all of my friends, and even though I really like the Final Fantasy series, I always get stuck and just kind of quit. I only own FF 2, FF 3, and FF 12. I've only beaten FF 12-2 (It's called FF 12 Revenant Wings) because it was SO much more fun than the other FF games I played, which just goes to show I like strategy games over turn based. HOWEVER, I am very opinionated and I wish to give in my input on the off chance someone agrees with me or you can find a reasonable way to make sense of the things I'm trying to convey.
Laguna's Future and Squall's Universe
Ellone sent Squall and his friends into the consciousness of Laguna and his friends. Perhaps, then, Squall is Laguna's alternate self and the universes themselves are combining or crossing over. Events like these can have effects of creating new events in the past that didn't happen before, which might explain why everyone went to the same Orphanage. Squall and Laguna even look the exact same in the game. They have the shame chins, they eyebrows lay the same, and both of them have a piercing in their left ear. If Ultimisia is from the future, how did the guy with the paper plate on his neck know? Is Laguna really from the future and Squall from his past?
Wasn't it said Ellone was going to become the Sorceress, anyway? If Ultimisia is in the far future, Ellone could be Ultimisia if Laguna and those others are from an alternate future of Squall's older generation. If the Sorceress did raise all the orphans, it might be because they left their own time/dimension and joined Laguna's, which is probably 10 to 20 years in the future to where Squall's time is. That would mean none of them (The SeeD Soldiers, to be exact) would have no back story in that world, making them all automatically orphans. Irvin would have to be from the actual dimension that Laguna lives in, and at the same time Squall meets Laguna.
This explains why he could shoot the Sorceress: He knew she raised them in a history that never physically happened but was produced because the team never existed there. I would suggest Irvin doesn't seem surprised when he meets his “orphan buddies” because he has no memories of meeting them. He just remembers them being together and grew up together.
Recap: Squall, Quistis, Selphie, Zell, Seifer, and Rinoa all live in a universe alternate to Laguna, Ellone, the Sorceress, and Irvin, and their time is also, in my opinion, 10 to 20 years into the future, but this aspect isn't necessary. It could probably work both ways. Because Ellone was tapping into the minds of people from another Universe by sending their thoughts into the past of Laguna's universe, their universes crossed and joined. Ellone, in this case, is Ultimisia in the future, and the Sorceress is now trying to Take of the World (Of course!) because, I would guess, Ellone (Ultimisia) knows what's going to happen because it already did. Ellone can send the minds of people into the pass, so why not when she's older and more powerful, be able to control minds that actually were in the past? She probably tried to get the Sorceress to kill everyone because she didn't Final Fantasy 8 to really be made at all!
This can explain the radio transmissions: The Robot Spider was activated by a wireless remote in Squall's universe and the interference in radio occurred 15 years in the past of Laguna's time (which places Squall in the right time line). Squall, thus, can't die because he's in the past of a different universe, and his past “reset” with the past that he was in the orphanage.
Like I said; I never played this game. My opinion may fall through because of that, but I'm only looking at the key points I heard about from friends and the Spoony One's play through. I can't explain why they made the Gunblade, or how Selphie and Zell became soldiers, or even why Quistis, who's pretty much the same age as Squall, is his teacher. Maybe she's from the future, too…
neon6

Because it's funny to see how the fans react.
neon6

Personally, it was the Moombas that broke my suspension of disbelief. If God exists in FF, what was he thinking?
DeathsHead419

This is a bit off topic, but Spoony, those adds are really starting to get to me. I know, you need them for revanue, I understand that. But couldn't you get someone else to advertise on your site man? I mean, really, the image of two girls in their underware imposed above dead pigs is not the image I want to assossiate with this place.

I understand if you can't do something about that, but it is a bit distracting haveing to quickly scroll down the page whenever I load this site.
Caelan

Moombas are elderly Shumi that are used as laborers. There's a more to it too but, eh.
StJoseph

Ill have to partially agree with you there. I say get rid of the pigs bring in more chicks.
DJGamer

I was one of the people who pointed out this theory over Twitter.

I personally think it's very interesting although I wouldn't accept it entirely until I actually got an opportunity to ask one of the developers directly if that's what they'd intended-and from one of the comments I've seen here there seems to be some indications from interviews that this theory is basically bullshit-although I'd really like to see these interviews quoted to see just how specific they are about it. I can't imagine there being an interview out there where the interviewer actually asked “So, does Squall actually DIE at the end of the first disc, making the rest of the story a kind of Jacob's Ladder-esque (without being anything like Jacob's Ladder besides the fact that he's dying and having a strange dream) hallucination?” That's a VERY specific question that I can't imagine would be asked unless there was some kind of interview conducted as a look back at the game or something.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Martin-Lindegren/100001570699570 Martin Lindegren

think it’s too subtile for a common gamer to even reflect on that thing that they should have had that in mind. But then again FF X isn’t that dissimilar to the SDT Theory. Might have been the plan tough. Write such a fuzzy gamestory that people are forced to think that’s it something more to it all..

http://twitter.com/Yadokingu Sag Ichnet

Imo Pheonix Downs can't revive somebody who is really dead. Only people on the brink of death can be revived. Otherwise it wouldn't have been a problem to bring Aeris or Nanaki's father back in FF7. But that's really not a problem here. Yes Squall got a big ass ice spear through his chest, but it was the right side and it wasn't taht thick, it was more long. That eans only the right wing of his lung should be destroyed. Under these circumstances you might even be able to save his life in the real world. With magic it should be as easy as Paris Hilton to restore him to full health, especially for a powerfull witch like Ultimitia.

Furthermore a lot of the arguments on the site are really feable. For example the “Boy meets girl, girl hates boy and loves other boy, but grows to love boy over time and forgets about other boy”-storyline is a classic in Anime, so I really don't know why it should be evidence for a dream here.
And that Ultimitia healed Squall can be explained pretty easily. How was Ultiitia to know that he was not the leer of the group? He sure looked like it. And even if she did know. Maybe there was still a small part of Edea in her, that wanted to save her son.

Though I have to say spoony, that your argument with the bad ending doesn't really hold water. What ending is worse: An evil witch rules the world or time is compressed into a bowl and the whole of history is royally fucked? Right it' the second option. If it's only an evil witch ruling the world she can be taken down by the gardens later on and it's over at the latest once she dies of old age. If time and space is screwed, nothing will change that.
Poipoi

I mean wow… I suggest don't try to make theories on a game you never played. Esp a game that is doesn't make much sense.

Ellone sent Squall and friends into the past to when she was a child to try and stop Laguna from Leaving his wife. She learns she can't alter the past. Ellone was never to become a sorceress. That was her only skill and otherwise she was helpless.

They were all raised in the same orpahage that Ellone stayed in for a short while. Squall is Laguna's son. Irvine remembered them all better because he never used the GF's. Why didn't he say anything? Cause it would have been weird for some guy you don't remember coming up and acting as if he knows you. You and anyone would be calling them crazy.

The evil Sorceress is from several generations in the future. Considering Ellone has an average life span, we can safely assume its not her.

Recap: There is no alternate universe. Ellone was never Ultimecia. Squall is not Dead. Rinoa is not Utilmecia. No theory is going to make this game many any more sense. Though I do have a theory that Squall wants to use Rinoa as a beard to hide his gay love for Seifer. And that Rinoa is into beatilaity.

Hey. if people are going to share their half ass ideas, so am I!
Poipoi

As crazy as these theories make me, I have to admit I can see the humor of posting this. Look at how many people respond to him and each other. Its really stirred things up. Heck, I may well have done the same thing if I was in Spoony's shoes.
Poipoi

Fear the furries… They will take over the world!
malestrithe

I admire your tenacity about this situation and I do not envy you one bit when it comes to listening to incessant fanboy bitching, Spoony. I accept your position on FFVIII for two reasons. The first one being that you actually played the fucking thing and that puts you light years above anyone else that complains about the game even though they have never played the game at all. The other reason is that I have recently replayed FFVIII. I like to take old games out of the closet and see if they still hold up to a modern setting. While I could forgive a lot of the game's flaws, like the magic system, the combat and the poor attempt of the QTEs that games like God of War made popular. This time around, I was made painfully aware of all the gaping plot holes. The game needs to either be longer to fill in the plot holes, or shorter to get rid of as many of them as possible. I still like the game a lot more than FFVII because of many factors that I will not go into right now.

As far as fanboy excuses, this one has got to be the lamest I've seen. For a death dream, this has got to be the most linear one I ever came across. It also tells me that at a subconscious level, the defenders are well aware that their beloved game does not hold a candle to anything else before or since.

As for the rest of you that complain about him giving a bad review the only thing I can offer is simple advice: Grow the fuck up. He does not like the game and no amount of defending is going to change that.
PatmanForever51

The obvious name for this website should have been “Squall is Dead”
midevalexponents2sqr

Oh. I only went by what I heard about. Thanks for filling me in.
MrSaturn

So they are trying to shoehorn “An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge” into a Final Fantasy game?
http://www.facebook.com/emran.ismail Emran Qadir Ismail

For Nanaki's father he was turned to stone so you would use “soft” but unfortunately Nanaki's father turned to stone a long time ago and he was hit by arrows that turned in stone.

Nanaki's father sacrifice himself to protect his village his son Nanaki(aka Red XIII) thought his father was a coward until he found out the truth at the end.

I love that part so much because of the music “The Great Warrior” I love that song
droge085

Has anyone heard of the theory that Rinoa is Ultimecia? That's a bombastic one.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Martin-Lindegren/100001570699570 Martin Lindegren

Think you mean the one from someone nickname “dreamer” at the Squall is Dead “official” forum. Something about Squall getting killed in the past while searching for Ellone,, and ultimecia got pissed and and started war with Esthar. Then started building on some time machine or something… I dont think I could connect every dot in it actually.

capochetta

Didn't Spoony make a reference to that? There was an episode where the Sorceress left and Rinoa ran in and he said something like, “Hey! Rinoa just pulled a Clark Kent!”
http://www.facebook.com/otakursed Mike Lee

I kind of like the idea, even if I'm not one who usually cares much for cynical, dark storylines. I mean, taking the power of positive thinking, which has a modicum of practicality to it, and making it the saving force in a D&D style game not only seems unnecessary, but also a little pathetic. Only in the mind can things gets so idiotically convoluted, imho.
arandomposter

I think its possible and was one of the things I think I felt as my brother played through it. I don't think much of the evidence has to even matter aside a few pieces as I understand this fictional world. Still, its hard to believe there was such a gap from FF7 and FF9. This is almost amateurish and if we think the FF creators all with the same talant in any FF it is sound.

Spoony's gives nothing more in evidence aside his take that it wont be ethical for a game to end this way (badly versus good), along with humor, as there is not one truly against or for it. Its just certain pieces are not enough as can be ruled out, but its usualy as silly as “its a game”. Well, look at Tenchu or any FF in that a single blow with a blade doesn't do the trick. Sephiroth could attack Aris in a game battle if ever occurred and wont do anything due to the context, but a cut scene would prove to be more realistic. Ditto with FF8, as we thought a Phoenix Down would bring Aris back and laughed our asses off at that FACT.

In the end, it is the intent of the makers that was clear from the start, that FF8 was more an artsy type story. This is something previews for it on the internet already gave us the impression of, more so then others today to think about it. The previews of 8 speak differently then the intent of other's previews, which are more so clear and able to understand (FF9-13). What is enough for me to give it credit is the ending and first part after the battle as he asks about his wound. He never concludes yet brings his personal thought into it, as Spoony also did, which is ok.

After that, it wasn't the story per say, I just hated how all of the systems worked. FF7 was easy to get into, but FF8 was too much for me as a child, like doing taxes or something. And having a card game I HAVE to do to play the game…no!

There isn't any point to bicker about it just due to it appearing to make it better as it really doesn't. It just lets us understand what is going on a little more, but all its flaws are still there, my major gripes with FF8. I thought the same thing too as I watched my brother play it and this was a common thought for me as a kid, wondering if he died there at the spot. So it isn't recent, its only now a second after thought coming to life. Again, no real strong evidence throughout aside its randomness, so any conclusion is likely upon an interview that I HOPE someone will make.
kayzieldnetz

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First conversation between Squall and Rinoa to begin my opinion on Squall's Dead Theory with:

Rinoa: You're the best looking guy here. Dance with me? Let me guess… You'll only dance with someone you like. Ok then… Look into my eyes… You're-going-to-like-me… You're-going-to-like-me… Did it work?
Squall: …I can't dance.
Rinoa: You'll be fine.
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Love transcends time. I pay tribute to the romance between Laguna and Raine, Rinoa and Squall, and, Edea and Cid.
Greetings Final Fantasy discussers, debaters, and fans, allow me to present my own idea of what I think about the game named Final Fantasy 8. I could be easily be wrong, be that is why we are: to discuss and maybe even to debate and argue LOL. Now I’m sure many of you guys who love the elements of romance and friendship in this story of FF8 were/are utterly heartbroken when we read bout this article conveying Squall’s dead theory are we not?? Me too!! Fthose of you who admire the element of romance of FF8’s story, it must have been really bad feelings for you guys to read Squall’s Dead Theory which define that Squall never win Rinoa’s heart, Rinoa never loves Squall, or as Rahul here has said in his reply to me saying, “it means that Squall had an unspoken crush on Rinoa, who was in love with Seifer (‘in love’ may be overreaching considering the nature of their relationship didn't go beyond a summer crush). He died before being able to tell her, although pre-Disc 2 Squall wasn't really the kind of guy to do that anyway.” I have the same tragic sad feeling about that too. However, very soon after you read my opinion, you will be compelled that rather than seeing Final Fantasy 8 as a story about “about a tragic sorrowful fate of a lone wolf who couldn’t win the heart of the woman he loves” or whatever you want to put it, you will soon realise the very beautiful and loving message and meaning and story of Final Fantasy 8 for it actually tells us that “love transcends time” =)
As you have read the Squall’s Dead Theory by Rahul and Diedra, there are many supporting evidences to prove its correctness, and as I have mentioned earlier, I will prove that the aforementioned Squall’s Dead Theory is wrong just like 1 plus 1 equals to 9. To do so, all I have to is to list down some facts from the game, (and I mean facts NOT opinions or self-proclaimed interpretative theory or whatsoever) and then argue ONLY one of the supporting evidences. Yes. You hear me. Only one of the supporting evidences is needed to be taken out to make all the Squall’s Dead Theory crumbles.

The evidence that I am going to take out to take out the entire Squall’s Dead Theory is the definitively arguably 2nd of the supporting evidence of the Squall’s Dead Theory. (Man, I keep saying the theory’s full name xD) Once you take out the 2nd of the supporting evidence, ALL the arguments of the Squall’s Dead Theory can be excused and the whole story of Final Fantasy 8 can be viewed in a whole NEW PERSPECTIVE. =)

As you have read, the 2nd of the supporting evidence of the theory states that, “Why go through all the effort of killing him just to bring him to full health when he’s obviously a threat to her?” which implies Edea, after impaling Squall with ice, she, in the manner of what-the-fuck-is-she-doing, healed Squall.

Yeah, why healed Squall? What the fuck is she doing is she mad?

The theory states that, “The attempted assassination of Edea by SeeD at Deling City at the end of Disc 1 is where everything starts (and ends).”
Sorry but I will prove that your statement is wrong. Let me spice up my argumentative opinion with the facts (and I mean facts NOT opinions or self-proclaimed interpretative theory or whatsoever).
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Facts number one: Ultimecia is the main villain of the story. She is a sorceress from the future and seeks to compress time.
Read the following conversations between Edea, Irvine and Zell.

Edea: “Ultimecia's objective is to find Ellone.”
Edea: “Ellone's mysterious power… Sending one's consciousness back into the past.”
Zell: “So, Ultimecia wants to use Ellone's power, right?”
Irvine: “I get it. Ultimecia wants to send her consciousness from this period further into the past.”
Zell: “What's she going to do in the past?”
Edea: “Time compression.”
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Facts number two: Edea was under possessed by Sorceress Ultimecia when first introduced in the game until Squall kicks the shit out of her(i mean, until Squall defeats her xDD)
Read the following saying by Edea taken from the game. Here, it is also again stated that Ultimecia is trying to find Ellone.

Edea: …I have been possessed all this time. I was at the mercy of Sorceress Ultimecia. Ultimecia is a sorceress from the future. A sorceress many generations ahead of our time. Ultimecia's objective is to find Ellone.
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Facts number three: After Balamb defeats Galbadia, the player learns that Edea is merely an unwilling tool for Ultimecia, a powerful sorceress from the future who wishes to compress time into a single moment; it is for this reason she has sought Ellone. Edea loses a decisive battle against the SeeD, forcing Ultimecia to transfer her powers to Rinoa; Edea survives, but Rinoa enters a coma. Squall becomes obsessed with waking her and goes to Esthar to find Ellone, as he believes that she can help save Rinoa.
Here is what Rinoa says in the game:
“Rinoa: There was a sorceress inside me. Ultimecia, a sorceress from the future. She's trying to achieve time compression.”

Here is what Squall says in the game:
Squall: Let's go, Rinoa. Let's go meet Ellone. Ellone will bring us together.

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Facts number four: Squall became the leader of the Balamb Garden.

Here is what Cid saying in the game:
Headmaster Cid: Squall, we're under your command from now on. This is your fate. It is your destiny to lead the way in defeating the sorceress.”

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Facts number five: I don’t know how to put this but i take it that you guys understand by reading what Doc Odine says bellow:

Doc Odine: There iz only one way to defeat Ultimecia. You must kill her in ze future. Ultimecia probably needs to go back further in time to achieve time compression. Only Ellone can take her back further into ze past. You will keep moving through ze time compression toward ze future. Once you're out of ze time compression, zat will be Ultimecia's world. It's all up to you after zat.

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Facts number six: Ellone, Quistis, Zell, Selphie, Irvine, and Seifer were very close during their childhood

Read what Squall says in the game:

Squall: “Elle…Ellone. So, Ellone was 'Sis'. She was a bit older than us, and we all used to call her 'Sis'. Quistis, Zell, Selphie, Irvine, Seifer, Ellone and myself… Yeah… I'm not sure what the meaning behind all this is, but we were definitely together.

If you are going to ask why they seemed to forget about their memories in the orphanage, read the following conversation from the game:

Squall: …Why is it that we forgot? We grew up together as kids… How's that possible…?
Irvine: How about this? …The price we pay for using the GF. The GF provides us its power. But the GF makes its own place inside our brain…
Quistis: So you're saying that the area is where our memories are stored? No…! That's just a rumor the GF critics are spreading.
Zell: So if we keep relying on the GF, we won't be able to remember a lot of things?”

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Facts number seven: If Seifer was a bad guy, a fucking goddamn sorceress knight, then why would he would be together with the others again in the ending fmv of the game?
Well, you will find that Seifer is not really a total asshole after you read the following:

Fujin: “You're being manipulated, Seifer. You've lost yourself and your dream. You're just eating out of someone's hand. We want the old you back! Since we can't get through to you, all we have now to rely on is Squall!”

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FACTS NUMBER EIGHT: Rinoa LOVES Squall and Squall LOVES Rinoa(man, how I love this part!!)

The best evidence for this is the final scene where Squall finally for the first time shows a smile in the whole entire game course, and then Squall kisses Rinoa <3 <3 <3
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Edea loses a decisive battle against the SeeD, forcing Ultimecia to transfer her powers to Rinoa; Edea survives, but Rinoa enters a coma. Squall becomes obsessed with waking her and goes to Esthar to find Ellone, as he believes that she can help save Rinoa. While Rinoa is being treated on Esthar's space station, Ultimecia uses her to free Sorceress Adel from her orbital prison. Ultimecia then orders Seifer to activate the Lunatic Pandora facility, inciting a rain of creatures from the moon that sends Adel's containment device to the planet. Having selected Adel as her next host, Ultimecia abandons Rinoa in outer space.

Squall refuses to let Rinoa die in space, and puts on his own space suit to find her. Squall reaches her, but his oxygen is not enough to get back to the pod. He luckily stumbles across the Ragnarok, the dragon-ship used to carry Adel into space. The atmospheric controls still work, and he and Rinoa can breathe again. After clearing the spaceship of aliens, they start back towards Earth, sharing a romantic moment while in space. When they land on Earth, Rinoa is captured (albeit willingly) by the Estharians and taken to the Sorceress Memorial, a place to seal Rinoa, similar to Adel's (but without the necessity of being taken into space, since she isn't a full-fledged sorceress). Squall lets them take her, knowing it's best for the world. However, Quistis arrives and berates him for letting Rinoa go. He heads back to the Sorceress Memorial and saves Rinoa before she is put into her cryogenic chamber.

They travel to Edea in the ruins of her Orphanage. Squall resolves to defeat Ultimecia so that Rinoa won't be possessed again. While there, Squall receives a transmission from Esthar City: the President has a plan to defeat Ultimecia, and he wants SeeD to do it. They travel to Esthar City to be greeted by the President, who to Squall's total surprise is Laguna. He and Dr. Odine have hatched a complicated plan. To defeat Ultimecia they would have to actually travel to the future to fight her. But time travel is technically impossible…

The idea is that Ultimecia needs Ellone's powers to travel further back in time (the machine she's using, an advanced version of the Ellone Junction Machine, has limits as to how far back it can go), and a sorceress to possess. Right now Adel is the strongest of the two surviving sorceresses, so that's who Ultimecia wants to possess, which would be catastrophic. Squall needs to defeat Adel to force Ultimecia to possess Rinoa instead. Then Ellone would take both Ultimecia's and Rinoa's minds back in time using her powers, allowing Ultimecia to compress time. She would then return Rinoa and Ultimecia to their proper times. Once time is compressed, the SeeDs can travel down it to any point, including Ultimecia's future.

They take the Ragnarok and smash into the Lunatic Pandora, entering it from within. They find Raijin and Fujin protecting Seifer again. Squall defeats them, and they run inside to find Seifer. They defeat him(Seifer), and Raijin and Fujin come in one last time and try to dissuade him(Seifer) from his(Seifer’s) imaginary quest. Seifer doesn't listen to them, he steals Rinoa and rushes to Adel's room. Adel takes Rinoa hostage, but Squall manages to defeat her without harming Rinoa. Ellone then carries out Laguna's plan, Time Compression is thus initiated; Squall and his allies travel to Ultimecia's era to defeat her. Ultimecia's castle appears. Squall finds his way through it and confronts Ultimecia. She Junctions herself to Griever (the “ultimate GF”), but Squall finally manages to defeat both Griever and the sorceress.

After Squall defeats Ultimecia, the universe begins returning to normal; however, Squall is nearly lost in the flow of time as he witnesses the origins of the game's story. When a dying Ultimecia travels back in time to pass her powers to Edea, Squall informs Edea of the concepts of Garden and SeeD that she will create. This means that before the event that Edea impales Squall with the ice attack, and before the event of the game itself, Edea already met Squall about 17(or 16?not sure..) years ago that when Edea was little and was inheriting the dying Ultimecia’s power, Edea was told(by Squall!) about Balamb Garden and SeeD and Squall being the leader of the Balamb Garden in order to beat Ultimecia. THAT’S WHY Squal was healed after he was impaled by the ice by Edea.

Here is a conversation between Edea and Squall:

Edea: SeeD? Garden?
Squall: Both Garden and SeeD were your ideas. Garden trains SeeDs. SeeDs are trained to defeat the sorceress.
Edea: What are you saying? You're… that boy from the future?

Here is a saying by Cid. Cid was pondering about the roles of SeeD, he was worried and wonder why Edea would create SeeD:

Cid: She had been a sorceress since childhood. I married her, knowing that. We were happy. We worked together, the two of us. We were very happy. One day, Edea began talking about building the Garden and training SeeD. I became obsessed with that plan. But I was very concerned with SeeD's goal, that one day SeeD might fight Edea…

Here’s one of Edea’s sayings in the game:

Edea: …I have been possessed all this time. I was at the mercy of Sorceress Ultimecia. Ultimecia is a sorceress from the future. A sorceress many generations ahead of our time. Ultimecia's objective is to find Ellone.

Read the following conversations between Edea, Irvine and Zell.

Edea: “Ultimecia's objective is to find Ellone.”
Edea: “Ellone's mysterious power… Sending one's consciousness back into the past.”
Zell: “So, Ultimecia wants to use Ellone's power, right?”
Irvine: “I get it. Ultimecia wants to send her consciousness from this period further into the past.”
Zell: “What's she going to do in the past?”
Edea: “Time compression.”

So there you have it.
Oh wait, let me summarise the whole story in orderly manner:

(1)A girl named Ellone is born and she has the power to send her consciousness backwards in time. She's sent to the orphanage of Edea and Cid Kramer. The little Squall goes there as well.
(2) When a dying Ultimecia travels back in time to pass her powers to Edea, a guy(future Squall) informs Edea of the concepts of Garden and SeeD that she will create.
(3) Cid and Edea realize the evil she could cause. They come up with a plan for a military academy where students would be trained to fight the sorceress's forces. They call the school Garden, and its graduates SeeDs. (Possibly the future Squall tells Edea these things via a closed time loop, but the ending's a bit vague as to whether that scene is real or not.)
(4) Edea trains her own small section of SeeDs, called White SeeDs. She realizes Ellone's potential as a sorceress and her special time-spanning power, and gives them their mission: to protect Ellone at all costs. They are given their own ship and separate from the other SeeDs.
(5) At the present time, when the story of Final Fantasy 8 starts to take place, Ultimecia reaches her mind across time and finally begins controlling Sorceress Edea. Her goal is to compress time into a single state, a state in which only Ultimecia may survive. By this time Garden has become more or less a center for training mercenaries (the need arose due to financial concerns) and their true purpose has been forgotten.
(6) Regretfully Cid begins to prepare to fight against his wife, but delays, hoping she will prove stronger than the sorceress' will which pervades her.
(7) Edea schemes to take over Galbadia herself. She does so by ingratiating herself with Vinzer Deling, Galbadia's dictator of a president. He resolves to announce his new friendship with Edea via satellite dish, a technology not in use since the radio silence began 18 years back. However, the only remaining radio receiver/transmitter is in the city of Dollet.
(8) Rinoa runs away from her father in Deling City and travels to Timber, where she becomes embroiled in the Forest Owls, one of the many rebel factions hoping to gain independence from Galbadia.
(9) Continual Junctioning of a GF is found to have decaying effects on human memory. Soon, Squall and everyone else at Balamb and Trabia Gardens completely forget their childhood at the orphanage.
(10) Selphie is transferred from Trabia Garden to Balamb Garden.

(11) Ellone is also taken to Balamb Garden for an unspecified reason.
(12) In Balamb Garden, Seifer eventually is shown to be a brash and unpredictable student. He fails the SeeD field test twice through failure of following orders. Oddly enough, he is appointed head of the student disciplinary committee, aided by two cronies, Fujin and Raijin. Squall (the youngest of the orphanage children) proves to be a moody and introverted student with great skill in the gunblade, rivaling that of Seifer. Quistis is a prodigy and becomes a SeeD at age 17 and an instructor a year later
(13) Squall and Seifer (both students of Quistis) hurt each other in a fight with real gunblades; both bear facial scars for life.
(14) oh god this will take forever goddammit, why don’t you just go to http://www.ffcompendium.com/h/ff8story.shtml for more details =)

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What about Squall?? After he defeated Ultimecia and then went to the past to tell Edea about Garden and SeeD, how did he return back to the future???

Answer: Only his yearning for Rinoa helps him to reach home again. This is it. This is the greatest romantic theme in the story. After being the hero who slays the sorceress, his yearning for Rinoa brings him back home!! That’s why you saw blurry pictures of Rinoa there. Now that you know that Squall never died(duh,..), you now have a whole new perspective on the whole story. Don’t worry about that faceless picture if Squall man, if u ask me my opinion on it, that could only mean that Squall does not know what is he feeling(thus he cant express anything, not even the usual solemn face of his, that’s why there is faceless picture of his there) when he was trapped in compression of time. However, he search for his strongest feelings so that he can go back home to his own time, and that feelings was – HIS PASSIONATE LOVE AND DESIRE FOR RINOA!! <3 in ending movie, you can see Rinoa leap forward to hug Squall as Squall manages to go back home to his own time <3

What about the future???

In the far future, Ultimecia, uses one of Dr. Odine's items to transfer her mind into the past. She can possess sorceresses of other times and force them to do her bidding. She plots to enter time compression, a state in which time is fused and only she can exist. She first takes over the mind of Sorceress Edea…
Well, you don’t have to worry about that you know why?? Cause Squall(again and again) will goes to the future and tells Edea to create Garden and SeeD ghahaha and then Squall and Rinoa can fall in love with each other, all over again~

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_____________________
“You were looking at me… You smiled when our eyes met. It made me feel calm, tranquil… Rinoa, give me another chance.”
“Even if you end up as the world's enemy, I'll… I'll be your knight.”
“Rinoa? I want to hear your voice. WHich way… do I go? I can't make it back… alone. Am I… all alone again? Where… am I?”
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http://www.facebook.com/people/Martin-Lindegren/100001570699570 Martin Lindegren

Yeah, and when is all that happening? After CD 1 I guess? I mean your post might grasp the intend of what the storywriters are trying to put forth BUT it still doesn’t DEFY the “Squall dies theory”.
I noticed myself that Edeas ICE hit Squall what quite possible could be a non-lethal part of the body. This is what creates this fuxxing abiguity and makes the Squall is Dead Theory possible but not supposely not the intented story of FF8.. Someone should hire a 3d anatomist or something to get that straight.. :P Overall I liked the story I assume Square wrote even though it got really meassy with time compression and god knows what..

kayzieldnetz

Here is what Rinoa(not others but the game character, Rinoa!!) says in the game:

Rinoa: There was a sorceress inside me. Ultimecia, a sorceress from the future. She's trying to achieve time compression.

This clears up everything =)
kayzieldnetz

Here's an excerpt of some beaufitul scenes in Final Fantasy 8 :D Hope you guys love it ^^
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32. Sorceress Memorial

[The party jumps out at the Memorial's blocked entrance.]

Sentry: “You want to see your comrade off…”

Sentry 2: “I'll make an exception. Go ahead.”

[The party runs into a control room filled with lab techs.]

Engineer: “What are you doing here!? This is a restricted area!”

Squall: “…To do what I should have done earlier. …I'll never
know unless I do it.”

Engineer: “What are you talking about?”

Squall: “…I know what I want and what I have to do. …There's
still a chance. I'm not gonna look back. I'm taking Rinoa
with me.”

Engineer: “What!? You must be joking. It's too late.”

[Squall's two teammates brandish their weapons.]

[*] Zell: “Go, Squall!”
[*] Quistis: “Now's your chance!”
[*] Selphie: “Go get her, Squall!”
[*] Irvine: “Squall, come on! Go!”

[Squall runs to Rinoa, whose encased in a transparent orb-room.]

Squall: “Rinoa, hold on! I'll get you out in a sec!”

[Squall punches the machinery.]

Squall: “What am I supposed to do!? Come on!”

[Squall gives the panel a taste of his gunblade. FMV. Rinoa falls
out into his open arms as the broken cables steam around.]

Rinoa: “Squall, don't! I'm a sorceress.”

Squall: “I don't care.”

[A teammate who hadn't spoken yet yells from the other room:]

[*] Zell: “Squall! Rinoa!”
[*] Irvine: “Squall! Rinoa!”
[*] Quistis: “Rinoa! Squall!”
[*] Selphie: “Rinoa! Squall!”

Squall: “Let's go.”

[Rinoa and Squall hightail it out, but the entrance is filled
with guards. A man walks up behind the guards...]

Man: “………”

[...and the guards back off.]

Squall: (That man… I've seen him before.)

[Squall leaves and the party gets on the Ragnarok.]

Quistis: “What's wrong, Rinoa?”

Rinoa: “I'm just a little…embarrassed.”

Zell: “Why?”

Rinoa: “I was so set on staying in Esthar. But then, when you guys
rescued me… It made me so happy, and…”

Irvine: “No need to be embarrassed!”

Selphie: “Yeah, happy is good.”

Rinoa: “Thanks…everybody.”

Zell: “Squall, you're awfully quiet. What's up?”

Squall: (I have a lot on my mind.)

Quistis: “As an expert Squall observer… He's thinking: what do we
do now? Blah blah blah… If you think and worry too much,
everything tends to turn bad. Squall. Why don't we just
picture a brighter future.”

Squall: “…Whatever.”

Zell: “But seriously, what do we do from here? I'm not really sure,
but… Don't we have to do something about that 'Lunatic
Pandora' in Esthar? After all, the Galbadians are controlling
it. Which means Seifer is behind all this too, right?”

Squall: “Seifer is…Ultimecia's puppet.”

Zell: “Yeah, and that Ultimecia! We can't let that sorceress from the
future mess up our world! Let's go kick her ass! We're SeeDs!
We're here to destroy sorceresses, right!!!?”

Squall: “ZELL!!!”

Zell: “…S-Sorry…”

Quistis: “So Squall…where we goin'?”

Rinoa: “Umm… Can we go to the orphanage you guys were talking about
in Trabia?”

Quistis: “That place is in shambles.”

Selphie: “There's nothing to see there.”

Rinoa: “I want to stay away from places where there are lots of
people… I'm a sorceress. If Ultimecia possesses me again…”

Squall: “Let's go. Head to [Edea's House].”

[The party jets to their old orphanage.]

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33. Edea's House [WK33]
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[Angelo runs to a spot near a field of flowers, leading Squall, Rinoa, and a
third party member. A conversation starts depending on which teammate you
bring (I'll list 'em):]

Selphie: “Hmm, I don't get it.”
Squall: “Get what?”
Selphie: “I never imagined you two would end up together. I mean…
you guys are complete opposites. So I didn't think Rinoa's
straight-forward approach would work. I'm glad I was wrong!”
Rinoa: “What about you, Selphie?”
Selphie: “Oh, me? I just like being surrounded by lots of friends.”

—

Irvine: “Ahh, this is good. This is very good!”
Squall: “What?”
Irvine: “See this bruise here? I had to put up with Rinoa's kicks
and punches for you. So, seeing you two like this makes it
all worth it.”
Rinoa: “I'm sorry, Irvine.”
Irvine: “Hey, don't worry about it. Okay, I'll leave you two alone
now.”

—

Quistis: “This place is beautiful.”
Squall: “Yeah, the flower field… I forgot all about this place.”
Quistis: “Rinoa forces herself into your world, no matter how many
walls you put around yourself, Squall. I knew I couldn't
compete with her. The only issue is whether you would make
a place for her… And you did, pretty quickly.”
Rinoa: “Who knows……”
Quistis: “You've changed, Squall. It's like Rinoa's the only one on
your mind. Good thing this wasn't before the exam. I'll
leave you two alone, now.”

—

Zell: “Oh… …Sorry.”
Squall: “About what?”
Zell: “I'm sure you want to be alone with her. So Squall… I never
thought you were the roma… Ah, you know…”
Rinoa: “What about you, Zell? That girl in the library…?”
Zell: “What!? I don't know what you're talking about!”
Rinoa: “All the girls in the Garden know about it. I noticed right
away, too.”
Zell: “Hey, this isn't about me!”

—

[The third teammate leaves.]

Rinoa: “What'll become of me?”

Squall: “Don't worry about it. There've been many good sorceresses.
Edea was one. You can be like her.”

Rinoa: “But Edea's still… I can't guarantee anything, either, if
Ultimecia possesses me again… You saw me. She controlled me
in outer space and made me break Adel's seal. What might happen
next time? What will I end up doing? Will I end up fighting
everyone? …Scary thought, isn't it?”

Squall: (Rinoa…… Even if you end up as the world's enemy, I'll…
I'll be your knight.)

Rinoa: “If I fall under Ultimecia's control again… SeeD will come
kill me, right? And the leader of SeeD is you, Squall…
Squall's sword will pierce my heart…… I guess it's ok if
it's you, Squall. Nobody else. Squall, if that ever happens…”

Squall: “That's enough! I'll never do anything like that. The
sorceress I'm after is not you, Rinoa. My enemy is the
sorceress from the future… Ultimecia.”

Rinoa: “Ultimecia lives in the future and possesses me. She uses my
body as her extension in this world. How? How will you save
me?”

Squall: “I'll come up with something… There's gotta be a way.”

Rinoa: “……”

Squall: “Don't worry. Trust me.”

Rinoa: “…I trust you. Well, until you find a way, maybe… Maybe I
should stay in Esthar, at that memorial? Wouldn't that be
better?”

Squall: “No… That'd be pointless. I'll just end up going after you
again. Rinoa… Just stay close to me.”

Rinoa: “Oh… Those words!”

Squall: “What?”

Rinoa: “That's what started everything.”

Squall: “What are you talking about?”

Rinoa: “You don't remember?”

Squall: “Something I said?”

Rinoa: “Oh, just forget it!”

Squall: “No, it's because of the GF. That's why I forgot.”

Rinoa: “That's just an excuse.”

Squall: “Feeling better?”

Rinoa: “Yeah. Can I tell you a story? I had a dream. It was a scary
dream. We make a promise. We promise to see shooting stars
together. I get dressed up an put on your ring. But the thing
is, I can't remember where I'm supposed to meet you. I start to
panic. I really want to see you, Squall, but I don't know where
to go. I start running through the mountains, the desert, the
plains… Through Timber, Balamb, and Galbadia… When I
realize I can't run any longer… I…I just want to see you so
badly… So I scream, Squall, where are you!? Then I woke up. I
was crying. I'm sorry. You don't have to say anything. I just
felt like I had to tell you.”

Squall: “It was just a dream… It doesn't mean anything. Don't worry
about it.”

Rinoa: “…I guess you're right.”

Squall: “How about this… I'll be here…”

Rinoa: “…Why?”

Squall: “The reason why you couldn't find me was because we haven't
promised yet.”

Rinoa: “Promised?”

Squall: “I'll be waiting for you. If you come here, you'll find me. I
promise.”

Rinoa: “I'll be here, too. It's a promise! Thanks, Squall! Next time,
we'll meet for sure!”

[Zell runs over.]

Zell: “Whoa! Sorry to interrupt! But it's an emergency. We got radio
contact from Esthar's Presidential Palace. They have a plan to
defeat Ultimecia. They want to hire SeeD to execute it.”

Squall: “Might be a trap to get Rinoa back in Esthar.”

Zell: “Oh, and ah… The guy we spoke to, his name's Kiros. Could he
be…that Kiros?”

Squall: “Kiros is in Esthar's Presidential Palace? He wants to hire
us? …Alright, let's go.”

[Edea shouts as the crew leaves.]

Edea: “Squall! There is something I must tell you. It is about me…
Yes… I believe it was 13 years ago… This is where my story
begins. I first became a sorceress when I was a child. And once
again…13 years ago. That day…right here, I encountered a
sorceress on the verge of death. I received her powers of my
own will. That sorceress was an entity of fear for my children.
I could not let her get to them. But… This turned out to be
the beginning of my painful story. At this very minute, my
bitter story has ended. I now understand that there is an end,
no matter how painful it may be. Therefore…Squall? You must
fight to the end! Even though it may bring tragedy to others!”

[The party gets in the Ragnarok and heads for the Palace in Esthar.]
Waqas Ahmad

All this theory is based on ONE WRONG FACT, that ICE-STRIKE can kill you….. Ok considering that it can kill, I remember when we accompany Edea to Esthar, we can control her for a while, and her LIMIT BREAK is ICE-STRIKE, but it doesnt kill any enemy/monster in one-shot either, nor it has death junctioned to it…… Lol… Even I casted it on the team member once, and revived it with a Phoneix Down….. As simple as that,

If Ice-Strike really killed Squall, then during the remainder of the dream, the ICE-STRIKE would have been a deadly move killing the monsters/enemies in one shot, having death junctioned to it or something better…. But thats not the case which disproves the theory….

http://www.facebook.com/people/Martin-Lindegren/100001570699570 Martin Lindegren

You wont be able to play with edea until Disc 3(?) so it can explained to as something Squall makes up in his mind.. I remember the FF8 story was a real headache when I tried to play it.. I think my conclusion after played through it when I was 18 was that the point was to create some loop that always will repeats itself. I don’t remember how I resonated but that was as good as I could pinpoint the storywriting.. There is of course one thing that’s mentioned before at disc 1 (presumably) when they do that massdream-thing which could puncture the “Squall dies” revision(?) story. But as someone explained it could be memories stored in those GF rings. Overall I liked that that game. And actually I liked Squall even from the beginning. One could assume from the beginning that there was something behind his behaviour. Much morely likely character than KumbanjaZidande. There is a psychological aspect to that Rahul mention which is pointed out att the Squalldie site. Squall’s unavaliability to connect to other people, possible craving for belonging and so on. But maybe FF8 is something Zenbudhistic in it’s nature. A storyless story.. I wish there were more almost bulletproofs theories like the “Squall dies”..

Waqas Ahmad

All this theory is based on ONE WRONG FACT, that ICE-STRIKE can kill you….. Ok considering that it can kill, I remember when we accompany Edea to Esthar, we can control her for a while, and her LIMIT BREAK is ICE-STRIKE, but it doesnt kill any enemy/monster in one-shot either, nor it has death junctioned to it…… Lol… Even I casted it on the team member once, and revived it with a Phoneix Down….. As simple as that,

If Ice-Strike really killed Squall, then during the remainder of the dream, the ICE-STRIKE would have been a deadly move killing the monsters/enemies in one shot, having death junctioned to it or something better…. But thats not the case which disproves the theory….
Z Man

The theory’s all well and good, but it never explains why Ellone comes to visit Squall at the opening scene of the game, saying something as obviously implicative as, “We meet again, Squall”. Obviously she knew him, and furthermore, Quistis, which was made blatantly clear when she yells out “Ah, help me Quistie” when you’re leaving from the “secret area” scene (ie the blue balls Squall pulls on Quistis). It’s about as subtle as a brick that she knows these people.
Anonymous

Hehe. I like it. Squall’s dead makes much more sense than the cannon storyline. It also makes the world seem like a much better place if Squall died in FF8. I don’t know why, it just does for some reason…

However, what I think is interesting is that you mentioned Minority Report and Total Recall. Both of those were based on two short stories by the awesome master of the mindfuck Philip K Dick: “Minority Report” (yeah, yeah, same name), and “We Can Remember It For You Wholesale.” And, spoilers for anyone who hasn’t read these two stories, in Minority Report, the protagonist actually does commit the crime based on 3 alternate minority reports presented by the government-trained mutant precogs in a multi-factorial spacetimeline, and in We Can Remember It For You, the protagonist is an ordinary office worker who is in fact a government undercover assassin who had his mind wiped to think he was an ordinary man, and HE in turn is the saviour of earth from what basically amounts to little green men who had his mind wiped to think he was an undercover assassin.

So seriously, the majority of the crackpot theories for Minority Report and Total Recall are actually tame compared to the source material. Which I think is pretty damn epic.

Now for anyone out there who happened to read this, if you REALLY want to doubt the very nature of your reality, read VALIS. And then read PKD’s Exegesis. PREPARE FOR YOUR MIND TO FORM A MOBIUS STRIP!
http://www.facebook.com/people/Jim-Longo/1088194985 Jim Longo

Beat the game tonight for the first time. Watched the ending. Played the last 20 min of FF7 to watch that ending. Remembered the ending from FF6.

The real problem with FF8 was that the story was uninvolving. So many theories keep coming up because not much really happens in the game and it’s almost like a blank slate. How many ways can you cover for bad writing? There are so many plotholes and problems it just makes no real sense. How about a villain who’s motivation is clear? What was the point of the Laguna flashbacks? Why does Adel look like a MAYUN when she is clearly referred to as a woman? If the audience has more questions than answers at the end of a story, something may be wrong with the story itself. Especially for the type of story the cannon was trying to tell. I can’t believe that out of all the main party members we don’t see hardly any background or development. FF7 had a third more characters, each with backgrounds, motivation, character arcs, and development. Remember Barret and Dyne? FF6 had much of the same (except for Gogo and Umero, but they’re extra’s so who really cares). Setzer anyone? FF8? The closest we get to something comperable is Laguna’s story, and he isn’t even a main character. No motivation. No involvement. Laguna’s story is better than the main story. The only part of the game which was actually interesting was the ending few hours once time compression starts. But I stress that these were still ideas without substance. (Something’s going on with people I don’t know hardly anything about. Dramatic.)

I felt really detached watching the ending play out. I had no interest in any of these characters. The whole “romance” tone of which the game was hyped about never really worked. You are basically told that the characters love each other without seeing real reasons or interactions to show why they do. Locke and Celes were way more believable than this, and that was 16 bit. FF8 is the Twilight of video games.

If I had to pick a word to describe FF8, it would be “empty”. Everything in the game is. It’s like an idea that hasn’t fully formed yet, with characters and a world and concepts, but no real way to draw the elements together in a cohesive manner. Laguna’s story could have made for an entire other game which would have made total sense. It would have been stupid, but it would have made sense.

It’s like the game had almost nothing really going on until the very end and said “oh crap well we better come up with something or else the fans are going to get pissed.” Compare as to why people like ff7 and 6. It’s all in the journey (and the gameplay), of traveling with, getting to know these characters as individuals instead of just randomly picking pictures of people with a “background.” which barely gives us anything to work with. Give us a reason to care.

FF7, 6, and 5 are all superior games in every way. Crisis Core was way better than this thing. I want my 30 hours back.

P.S. Squall’s dead is a nice idea, and I wish it was actually true. But it ain’t.

http://www.facebook.com/dandanthepumpkinman Dan McMichael

Im sure you know that Squall is Laguna’s son. And that Rinoa is Julia’s daughter. And that Ellone is the linchpin of the entire game. So the purpose of the flashbacks is two fold, to create a parallel between Laguna and Julia’s romance and Squall and Rinoa’s romance (although I totally stand by the Squall’s Dead theories points about her previous relationship with Seifer just getting chucked out the window after disc 1), and suggest a kind of “fate”, even if Laguna and Julia could never be together, their children would be, as well as provide backstory on Ellone, and create the plot mechanic about which the entire game revolves, Ellone has the power to fuck with time, Ultemicea is after that power. If the Laguna flashbacks never occurred, such a plot mechanic would be revealed in an even worse and more “deus ex machinistic” fashion.

http://www.facebook.com/ManeTovar Marianela Tovar

couldn’t be more agree with you

http://www.facebook.com/ManeTovar Marianela Tovar

ok seriously man whet your facts clear. I don’t have to tell you why the flashbacks were important they already did …I beilive Ultimecia’s life is a mistery and that makes it more interesting..I’m not saying she is the best villian because Sephiroth ruled as the best villian, but she wasn’t the worse, maybe her motivations are not clear but wow…she did a great job using Edea then Rinoa etc…so the player was always searching for the real villian which in my personal case it made me stay a whole day playing the game..I’ve alreday played FF7, FF8, FF9, X and third one. And you know? FF8 is the best one for me…and if you think a game that leaves you with questions in the end is bad, then you are wrong, there’s a whole strategy behind it and it’s called marketing it worked for FF7 and the whole Vincent Valentine story.. and I have lot of questions from FF7 …and the main characters did have a motivation…Squall was always seaching for the truth for who he was, cuz he didn’t know, can you think of a better motivation? Zell was fighting for love..to protect his family in order to say thankyou for adopting him and making him a happy person who recieved love, he didn’t want her mother to die in hands of a sorcceres. Selphie began with no motivation but then when Travia Garden was destroyed she wanted revange, she wanted to fight for those she loved and died. Irvine wanted to fight with Squall and the other because he always knew they were friends he fought with them not only to know what happen to his “matron” but also he fought to recover his friends and his love. Quistis began fighting only because she was a great student and became teacher, then she fights beacuse she wants to know if she is really ready to be a Seed leader and also she fights to get noticed by her love Squall, on the way she discovers friendship and fights for that and to rescure Rinoa and Edea from any danger of Ultimecia. Rinoa is a very interesting character although she doesn’t like fights she also fights to find herself, to find that strong woman she can be, she also discovers friendshio and love and that’s a better reason for her to search that strong woman, in order to protect her most important things in the world: friendship and love. So not always the most direct and obvious motivations like Laguna’s one are the best ones.
So if you are not convinced with my arguments then I’ll just leave you aline…but don’t write crap about FF8 in a blog that talks about FF8 if you don’t like it then why even searching or bothering commenting ??

http://rahul.choudhury.name/ Rahul

Nice review. Consider this: it doesn’t matter if Squall’s Dead is true or
not. It matters what you think. If you’ve seen Inception, consider how you
feel about the meaning of the last scene – does it matter what the director
intended? Or the ending to Final Fantasy VII (ignoring the Compilation crap
for a second): they don’t talk about whether Holy destroys humanity or not.
It’s left up to you. Squall’s Dead is merely commentary on that, but for
FFVIII.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Jim-Longo/1088194985 Jim Longo

I reread your theory for clarification. It is very well written and presents logical arguments to a game that excels in lacking logic. I think it’s a way better story than what the creators intended. I would much prefer that it was the story to the game. But like you said yourself, there is no real “proof” to this theory, and yes, the game really is that stupid.

Believe what you want is the moral of the story. I can dig it.
Anonymous

I comment to this quote:
“I raised the bullshit flag when, in the next scene, Squall awakens in some mobile, drill-shaped Galbadian prison hale, hearty, and with nary a scratch on him. At some point, I guess I just had to let it go, because we’re talking about a world where Curagas and Phoenix Downs exist specifically to raise the dead.”

Thanks bro!!! I needed that!!! rotfl
Anonymous

I comment to this quote:
“I raised the bullshit flag when, in the next scene, Squall awakens in some mobile, drill-shaped Galbadian prison hale, hearty, and with nary a scratch on him. At some point, I guess I just had to let it go, because we’re talking about a world where Curagas and Phoenix Downs exist specifically to raise the dead.”

Thanks bro!!! I needed that!!! rotfl
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=753345456 Octo Seven

Dude have you read Minority Report or We Remember it for you Wholesale? There’s no such thing as a crackpot theory when it comes to Phillip K Dick, even when Speilberg or Verhoven are interpreting his work. This comment has nothing to do with FF8 though lol, my god that story sucked and was just nonsensical.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=753345456 Octo Seven

Dude have you read Minority Report or We Remember it for you Wholesale? There’s no such thing as a crackpot theory when it comes to Phillip K Dick, even when Speilberg or Verhoven are interpreting his work. This comment has nothing to do with FF8 though lol, my god that story sucked and was just nonsensical.
Anonymous

Squall is dead, man. Miss him, miss him, miss him.
Anonymous

Squall is dead, man. Miss him, miss him, miss him.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Ramond-E-Wright-Jr/622138763 Ramond E. Wright Jr.

Wasn’t the other ending enough of a middle finger to the players?
http://www.facebook.com/dandanthepumpkinman Dan McMichael

technically phoenix down doesn’t raise the dead… they’re “KO’d”: knocked out.

As for this reading providing an meaningless story… the story that they tell DOES have closure, the framed narrative of the reading allows for the other characters stories to continue however. MAYBE they get executed… maybe they don’t. Besides, the bad guy winning in the bigger picture makes for a refreshing change…

As for the Mass Amnesia of childhood, that was the GF’s making them forget, there was even a fairly explicit discussion about it when they got to Trabia Garden. Irvine is the only one that remembers because he’s the only one that has only recently junctioned. Selphie found a GF when she was 12 or something and had been using it for a while.

http://www.facebook.com/people/George-Rosenbaum/100001387887487 George Rosenbaum

So, Phoenix down is more like smelling salts, because they serve to revive unconscious people?

Why even farm feathers from magical birds that have been recently reborn after god-know-how-many years when smelling salts are probably cheaper to manufacture and will do the same thing?

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000107985041 Nícolas Samson

The writer of the original article fully admits that the theory is most likely not what the creators of FFVIII intended. I personally liked the explanation, but only insofar as it gave *a* coherent (albeit bull) story.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000107985041 Nícolas Samson

The writer of the original article fully admits that the theory is most likely not what the creators of FFVIII intended. I personally liked the explanation, but only insofar as it gave *a* coherent (albeit bull) story.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000107985041 Nícolas Samson

The writer of the original article fully admits that the theory is most likely not what the creators of FFVIII intended. I personally liked the explanation, but only insofar as it gave *a* coherent (albeit bull) story.
http://www.facebook.com/ManeTovar Marianela Tovar

I hate you blog!….maybe FF8 is so good that gives you a lot of many interpretantions if you don’t like the game then don’t write a fucking article about it.

Anonymous

Lol.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Adam-Belsha/1346172600 Adam Belsha

The ending to Final Fantasy VII is elaborated on in the sequels. You can’t push away what chronologically happens in a series just because you want to, especially when there’s a sequel that explains the results of the previous ending. Did Holy destroy humanity? No. Humanity exists in the next two sequels. It’s not up for discussion, unless you think you can reasonably explain that Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus never happened. Although why they would continue a storyline two years after everybody died, I have no idea.

And I have a hard time with people who think that if you have a theory about something, it doesn’t have to be true to anyone yet it can still be true to you. Personal interpretation is fun, but when it has as many holes in it as “Squall is Dead” does, it comes off as more convoluted than the actual story.

http://rahul.choudhury.name/ Rahul

Er why do you have a problem with people who want to interpret the game this
way even if other people don’t? What do you care?

http://www.facebook.com/people/Adam-Belsha/1346172600 Adam Belsha

My problem isn’t with personal interpretation.

Interpretation can be useful in the absence of concrete truth so long as that interpretation is meaningful and reasonable. However, due to the very definition of interpretation, people seem to think they can mold a storyline into anything they want…then once their mind is made up, even if there are major flaws and holes in their idea, they can rightfully go on and say “well, that’s my interpretation, that’s what I think happened, you can’t change my mind”.

Information is ignored or altered and other theories are devalued as misinterpretation. Extraordinary accounts in a -fantasy- setting are considered unrealistic or impossible and then need to be explained to be made sense out of. “Squall is Dead” does all of these things, yet I couldn’t change your mind if I tried. Why would I try in the first place? Because the argument uses a lot of specious reasoning and it reaches out to a community that I’m a part of: the online FF8 debate community. I won’t bother debating somebody whose analysis of a subject includes everything I listed at the beginning of this paragraph. It’s nonsensical.

You’re entitled to your own interpretation. It can still be very convoluted and fallible is all I’m saying, and continuing to believe in something that is both of those things is foolish.

http://rahul.choudhury.name/ Rahul

Your post makes numerous assumptions about other people just because they -
apparently – interpet a game differently than you do. Who are you to say
their interpretations are invalid? And why do you insist on claiming that
those people are unable to change their minds? Kind of an arrogant attitude,
if you ask me.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Adam-Belsha/1346172600 Adam Belsha

I speak from experience. I make no assumptions as I’ve personally observed these behaviors in the past. People use erroneous reasoning and they cherry pick to support their own opinions all the time. Ever hear of…religion? It’s a lot like that. You can preach logic until you’re blue in the face, that doesn’t mean they’ll listen to you.

And interpretations become invalid when there is either strong evidence to go against them, or when they are filled with holes as I said above. There’s nothing wrong with having a casual opinion about something so long as it’s rational. This reminds me of an image I have saved on my hard drive.

In a book: “The curtains were blue.”
Your teacher thinks: “The curtains represent his immense depression and his lack of will to carry on.”
What the author meant: “The curtains were fucking blue.”

Interpretations can be invalid.
http://rahul.choudhury.name/ Rahul

There’s no such thing as an objectively invalid interpretation. The very
nature of interpretation makes it subjective. Religion is a great example:
people who are religious believe what they believe, and just because you
don’t believe it as well doesn’t make them wrong. It just means you disagree
with them.

No one’s hurting you when they agree with Squall’s Dead. I guess I just
don’t understand why you care so much.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Adam-Belsha/1346172600 Adam Belsha

I’m not saying I don’t believe in what others believe. I’m saying there are holes in their logic that works against them. You seem to have missed the fact that I’m for interpretation: I’m not arguing against the idea of the opinion. It’s believing a fallacious one in the face of overwhelming opposing evidence that bugs me, and it bugs me because I’m trying to be involved in a serious discussion with people who are preaching an erroneous argument. A does not equal B simply because you tell yourself that it does.

The general idea here is that you’re not wrong because I don’t agree with you…you’re wrong because you’re wrong. I’ve already noted that “Squall is Dead” ignores and alters some information, makes the ironic argument that “unrealistic” and “impossible” events occur in a FANTASY video game, and uses the word “misinterpretation” to refer to other peoples’ ideas about the game (yet how can the word “misinterpretation” exist if there is no wrong interpretation?). Those are my reasons for not agreeing with the theory. In my mind, it is not sound. The invalidity of the argument needs to be corrected to keep fallacious arguments from polluting real logic and debate within the community.

Those are my reasons. I feel like I’ve explained myself numerous times at this point. If you’d like to discuss it further, feel free to message me on my Facebook account as I don’t feel like carrying out a one-on-one argument with somebody in public.
http://rahul.choudhury.name/ Rahul

There’s no such thing as an objectively invalid interpretation. The very
nature of interpretation makes it subjective. Religion is a great example:
people who are religious believe what they believe, and just because you
don’t believe it as well doesn’t make them wrong. It just means you disagree
with them.

No one’s hurting you when they agree with Squall’s Dead. I guess I just
don’t understand why you care so much.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_7PPKGTFIH3EW455YYR2S5S2P6Y Kenny Vider

Who mentioned FF7? This whole thing is about 8.
Sorry if you were replying to someone… I was just kinda confused where 7 came in at.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Adam-Belsha/1346172600 Adam Belsha

I was trying to reply to something that was said farther down the page, but my Facebook sign-in flubbed and I made a new post. :

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_3MYYE6VHJOQII3X4LBUP7FG2GM John

I think that this theory was made because this person really thought that every final fantasy game has to have a deep story or meaning to it. The idea of the game really being a study of squall’s mind right before he experiences death is a fascinating idea but I really don’t think that this is the case since this is a fantasy RPG game and weird shit is supposed to happen in these games.
I would really like to see a movie about something like that though. We see into the mind of someone experiencing death and see his/her life flash before the person’s eyes and they contemplate what their lives might have played out like while they experience what feels to them like decades.
Vicente Pelechano Servando

Final Fantasy VIII has its deep meaning, it is about coming of age, is one of those works were the character interactions are more important than the story.

It is not about withces, is not about time c(k)ompression that shit is unimportant, it is about Squall becoming an adult, acting at the start as an emo asshole that hinks beinc emo is cool and edgy and slowly softens to the lovely pragmatism that is becoming an adult.

The rest doesn’t make fucking sense because it doesn’t have to, it is just a stage, the same way Final Fantasy VII’s story was about enviromentalism and IX was about War, just check the stories of said games closely.

In VII you have the main protagonist suddendly having being mind controlled by the dead villain who revives and destroys the world just because, then suddendly it happened that Cloud was part of a failed experiment to replicate Sefirot’s Clones because it is good to have good soldiers being maniacs run amok for every company that tries to control the world…I loved VII but the plot is bullshit, it is ok for JRPG’s but if you compare it to Suikoden’s plot for instance it doesn’t hold ground.

Same goes to IX when suddendly it happened that the protagonist was part of an artificial alien race that…

Saying I like Final Fantasy for the plot is like saying that you buy Hustler’s for the writting, either you are completely illiterate in gaming and literary terms and it is just impressing your virgin mind, or it is nostalgia speaking for you.

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