Forgot to mention this one!
Final Fantasy Versus XIII does not yet have a scheduled release date.
Final Fantasy will never again be as balanced as it was with 4.
And the stories will never be as good as they were with 6. That scenario writer? Gone.
Or VII. Depends on which game you prefer, really. I found 6 to be quite poorly paced, though the actual events were excellent. I kept getting excited, then bored before anything else happened to catch my eye.
That’s my complaint with the Legacy of Kain series, really.
AMAZING stories, but unfortunately you have to play the game to put together the pieces of it.
The reason why FFvsXIII was so similar to Kingdom Hearts is because it was the same team that worked on both games. Square has stated that this would be the ‘darker’ than other games in the series, so perhaps this would be something more to your taste, perhaps without the moogles? :)
I saw one of the trailers and the battling did look very fluid with sword slashes and magic in a modern setting, along with some ‘metal gearesque’ mechas tearing shit up. The only complaint that I foresee is that people might say its not a very ‘Final Fantasy’ game, but hey, its a variant title.
Eagerly awaiting that game to be released.
Square going for a ‘darker’ game? Egh, that’s gonna go well… They’ve tried making an artsy, moodier movie with Advent Children, now a ‘darker’ game? They look like they’re going for that with Type-O too – with all the blood and violence, but it’s hard to take serious with all the cartoony characters and stereotypical archetypes.
Kudos to Square for going out of their comfort zone, but I wish they’d just better games that are already in their area.
If you want to see Square doing a dark game, go check some of the cut scenes from Drakengard.
Square didn’t do Drakengard, Cavia did. Square simply published it.
But either way, Drakengard is boss.
You think 13 versus might be good? Well crap maybe I’ll take a look at it when it comes out then. I never did finish 13 because I got bored. Especially with the music. My god that music was bland.
They could just do their battles like Tales of series, with actual action based fighting.
That series is BOSS.
Cutscenes + auto-battle = a movie!
Seriously, if a game is mainly just the player watching what’s shown on the screen with hardly any game-play interaction, then it’s not really a game. Its a movie. And even if there’s a choice in story paths, it would only make it an interactive movie at best.
Video-games are meant to be played, which means there needs to be an ongoing interaction of the characters’ actions and/or the manipulation of the environment. If it’s just you watching and listening to what’s in front of you, and waiting for the right time to press a button (whether it’s for choosing a story path or dealing with a quick-time event), then it’s not really a game. It’s basically a movie trying to pass off as a game.
The problem with turn-based combat is that it’s only intellectual. And to me playing games should be only partly intellectual experience. Sure you can put two computers to play chess and they’ll always make moves that are the most logical in the long run. That’s not a fun experience.
What to me is fun is playing with chances… whether it’s trying to make that hard jump, shoot that enemy or to make a decision based not only to logic. If you wanna beat someone intellectually, play chess. If you wanna have fun, try Super Mario Bros or Crysis.
Lol, crysis and fun should not be in the same sentence.
Although i disagree with your sentiments about TBC, i respect your opinion on it.
Personally i love TBC, it has a certain level of fluidity and challenge that you simply can’t find these days, due to everything from japan and the us generally going away from what made those games so grand, the feeling and enjoyment you got from those games still to this day hasn’t been recaptured by any of the newer styled games these days imo, how i long for games like wizardry, grandia and such to come back into the limelight, well at least we’ve got games like etrian odyssey and persona.
Either way, i agree with you spoony, if any final fantasy game will save the series, it’s versus, let’s hope they don’t mess it up, as i really want to enjoy the final fantasy series again, but since 10 i’ve lost most of my hope.
Well, I had fun with Crysis, so you can see why I definately think it SHOULD be in the same sentence with fun.
I don’t really get your argument about the fluidity of TBC. Are you saying that games like Super Mario Bros and Crysis would be more fluid with turn-based combat? I guess you do have that with Super Mario RPG’s, but those don’t look fluid at all to me. It looks like you’re analyzing, analyzing, analyzing… and then making the best possible choice. It’s an intellectual process… which can be fun if you’re going for the satisfaction of being the smart kid who figured the game out. That’s what Rubik’s Cubes are for.
I have fun when I try to execute something… like play guitar. Other people have fun when they program a complex, functional algorithm. I guess it’s just different kind of fun. Comes from a different source.
I found crysis to be the worst FPS ever to be made,so i have to disagree there.
Also, your argument about mario and crysis misses my point entirely, i’m not saying there’s anything wrong with platformers or FPS’s, i’m simply saying that they cannot capture and in many ways do not wish to capture the same feel and such of a TBC based game, if anything what i’m saying is that most companies these days have abandoned some of the more old school gamers in favor of the twitch and casual gamers, thus abandoning many of their original fanbase for a quick buck.
As for what you were saying about TBC, it is intellectual to an extent, however TBC, at least in older games did have a degree of chance in them, your attacks were not set attacks, they could fail, etc, just like a D&D game’s system of rolling the dice.
Either way, that by no means makes what you said in your op right, as people enjoy different types of games, you don’t see me playing mario party for instance, however by your analogy that is more enjoyable than final fantasy 6 simply because it’s not “turn based”.
If anything, i am angry at a remark that is a blatant insult to people who enjoy old school rpg’s, however i expect my words won’t change that.
My biggest issue with Square Enix is that Versus XIII still hasn’t come close to release anywhere. It looks utterly fantastic, and if it plays like Kingdom Hearts II then it’s going to be welcomed with open arms after XIII and XIII-2. It seems like Square keeps putting Versus on the back-burner so they can keep jerking off the XIII universe, and it’s aggravating because Versus is far more likely to get people caring about Final Fantasy again than XIII-2 will.
From what I’ve heard of the story, it isn’t exactly going to be new ground for Square Enix, but I sincerely doubt they can mess it up as much as they did XIII.
The thing people don’t understand with Final Fantasy is that the games aren’t all made by the same team. This is why some suck (alright a lot suck), some suck harder, but some are absolute gems!
Take XIII and XIII-2, they are made by a team headed by Motomu Toriyama. This guy is also responsible for the travesty that was X-2 :/. How he keeps getting work at SE is beyond me.
XIII-Versus is being directed by Tetsuya Nomura, the man behind the Kingdom Hearts series and correct me if i’m wrong but i’m sure he wrote or co-wrote FF7.
Anyway nice to see you speaking positively about FF for a change spoon xD, let’s hope this doesn’t change when the game finally hits stores.
No Snow, Lightning, Vanille or Hope?
Thank fuck for that!
They’re NOT the same world. It’s just the same overarching mythology that involves the same deities and the same creation myth. l’cie and fal’cie should make an appearance in both games. However, what they are, what their role is in the world, and how they effect the characters and story will be COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.
spoony i totally see your point about the auto battles i happen to like that but do you think it’d be better if you could just turn it off like persona? i do find myself yelling at the character for not acting like normal people and them stating one thing but acting like they didn’t so yeah your right that story isn’t very well written.
Two points I’d like to make:
1. FF Versus XIII may well be better than FFXIII. However, according to my research (i.e. wikipedia), the game is going to be more of a 3d Person Shooter/Hack ‘n Slash, than an RPG. Which means it might also turn out like the wrong-headed and poorly executed Dirge of Cerberus: Final Fantasy VII. Just saying…
2. I’m surprised that Spoony was optimistic about this game being like Kingdom Hearts; it seems to me to embody all the cutesy, sentimental, sickeningly saccharine sweetness he hates about JRPGs.
i think he only meant the combat style, which is logical since (if my info is correct) the team that made kingdom hearts is working on versus
I guess I don’t mind it when writers for games make the story a little obfuscated and difficult to understand. Leaves a lot of room for symbolic interpretation and other things normally reserved for literature, and that’s something games could use a little more of. FF XIII’s story really impressed me, to be honest; it felt to me like they took the usual Final Fantasy story (group of people go save the world using magic powers) and took it down to Earth. They explain where the magic is from, why your party is so much stronger than everyone else, and all that other stuff that’s normally left to the RPG imagination. Hell, they even explain where destiny comes from. So it becomes a story about regular working-class Joe’s getting super powers and then being determined to use them for the greater good. The characters started off stock, sure, but they all got to be pretty complicated by the end of it when their one-dimensional philosophies failed them utterly.
Maybe I’m biased because I hated XII for being so fucking lazy on story and characters, so this one felt like a breath of fresh air? I don’t know.
The combat, too, I was hesitant about at first, but once things start getting more complicated you can see better what they were going for. I think it would have been just a sit back and watch thing if not for the Stagger bar, which makes you change up your strategy to keep the battles from going on for 45 minutes each. Plus, it’s just fun watching so many huge numbers fly out of enemies in rapid succession. Base enjoyment there, but hey.
All in all, though, they took care and attention in trying to make a good game with XIII. Square-Enix doesn’t always do that (*cough*Star Ocean The Last Hope*cough*).
I don’t know about XIII-2. Same thing with X-2, the question is, WHY? And yes, Moogles seem completely out of place in that setting. They had the Carbunkle dolls, but that was a doll. And anyway, the only Moogle that was ever cool was Mog from 6, because he stabbed people with a spear and made rocks fall on them.
Ah, but the Kingdom Hearts battle system is exactly the same as God of War’s.
Seriously; play both games back to back and tell me I’m wrong.
I just played 15 minutes of KH2 gameplay, and 10 Minutes of GoW3 gameplay. You’re wrong.
I’m sorry, but I think I missed the part where Sora force-fed the hydra one of its own heads.
No it’s not.
They’re both hack and slash, but that’s its.
(and goddamnit, I accidently pressed the like button instead of reply, why can’t I undo this?)
Spoony, man I have been following FFVersusXIII for years now, like actual years. I’m a big Kingdom Hearts fan and Action RPGs is my favorite genre of games so this seemed right up my alley. I wanna thank you for this information, I didn’t even know that the game was even at E3 at all. I searched around for some new for it and didn’t find anything so now I think I’ll actually see it in my lifetime.
As convoluted and sometimes stupid Kingdom hearts could get, the gameplay was top notch. My favorite style of RPG, far more engaging and fun than anything the Elder Scroll series has ever offered (but they offer other great things Kingdom Hearts and others should take notice of).
Imo, that’s what makes me a hopeful person about Versus. I LOVE Kingdom Hearts action RPG style and if Versus has that with a decent or, hopefully, good story and characters? Man, that’ll get such huge praise from me.
And Spoony, you could NOT use the auto-battle option in FFXIII, just saying :P sure they basically put it at the top of the list and made it kinda more beneficial to, but you don’t have to. I often didn’t and found it increased my fun of FFXIII a lot more. The characters for the most part still pissed me off (I hate you Lightning and Hope) and the story was “eh” but the gameplay and world was pretty cool for the most part.
one of my most hyped games to date
And it will remain that way for a long time lol.
SE need to get a move on with Versus. It was first announced 5 years ago. Since then we’ve had XIII and we’ll have it’s bloody sequel before we have the FF game that (let’s face it) people are actually interested in (who seriously wanted a sequel to XIII?) I’d like to see it before I’m freakin middle aged. I doubt I’ll care much for the story, because Tetsuya Nomura has compared it to Hamlet and said it’s an epic that will make people cry, just like Motomu Toriyama said that XIII’s masterpiece of a story will make up for it’s sterile, linear environments and boring gameplay. I haven’t even been slightly impressed with FF story wise since VII, maybe I haven’t got it in me anymore…but Versus still looks amazing and innovative.
I will borrow 13-versus from a friend before i actually get the game, Square has burned me to many times for me to buy their games on day 1.
probably the closest thing to Grade-A writing Square (and yes, I mean the Square side of SE) writing Square has made recently has been the remake of Tactics Ogre. That’s mostly because the guys who made it are by FAR the most talented at the company. They could have made FFXII into a masterpiece, but unfortunately the director left halfway through due to executive meddling (such as the inclusion of Vaan who wasn’t supposed to be in the game; Basch was supposed to be the main character). They CAN tell good stories, but the talent pool has plummeted due to most of the great writers and designers having left the company and the least talented people being put in charge due to fellating the egos of the right people
Don’t you mean “versus 13″ (instead of 13 – versus) ?
which has nothing to do with FF 13 AT ALL
And I thought you were gonna show some footage, but about halfway I started skipping forward (because you are booooring!)
and so I noticed you re not saying or showing anything about ff versus 13 at all !
you’re just ranting about ff 13, saying the same stuff everyone says, but with shitty arguments.
sorry if I sound like a douchebag (or similar), but it’s just the truth IMO
Final Fantasy 13
Final Fantasy versus 13
These two titles have nothing to do with each other, correct?
Then…why is the 13 still in the title? I mean, we’ve had such previous
titles as “Final Fantasy X-2″ and “Final Fantasy 7 Dirge of Cerberus”;
you’re saying that these two titles do not have anything in common with
each other? Please, explain this division by zero that Square-Enix has
Well not nothing ofcourse, it’s still a final fantasy game ofcourse.
But it’s not a sequel (or prequel or whatever).
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Versus_XIII )
Though it’s true that it’s kinda confusing title (like it was for some people with FFX-2 and FFXII)
It’s still part of the “Fabula Nova Crystallis Final Fantasy” though
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabula_Nova_Crystallis_Final_Fantasy )
Maybe that’s why it’s got 13 in the title ?
Or maybe it has some meaning within the game ?
I don’t know.
anyway, if you want to know more about this you can check the finalfantasywiki:
If you’ve played FFXIII, you should check out the mythology behind Fabula Nova Crystallis,
as this mythology is the same for all the games in this series. And it makes the story of FFXIII a lot better IMO.
Here’s my problem, among many, with this choice of naming.
*activates Dragon Install*
These two or three games aren’t supposed to be related in anyway to one another…yet they take place in the same world (like FFT and FF12). Okay, why does it take place in the same world? What purpose is this “Fabula Nova Cryptic Bullshit” made for (besides the obvious answer of ‘making money’)? Is it like the Wild ARMs series, where each story is different, but they take place in the same world, but don’t seem to impact one another? Or…let me see…the Final Fantasy series before 10-2?! Where each one is different and unique in its own way, yet are related by title and content? But that’s series titles, I’m talking about subdivisions underneath the entire series and what this is logically comparable to, if anything.
Either they are related or they are not. If they aren’t related, then the purpose of the 13 in the title is meaningless and it should be a differently named Final Fantasy title altogether (like, I dunno, Final Fantasy 14; instead of that waste of money of an MMO, which could have had a title like Final Fantasy XI-2 Online or Final Fantasy XI Online: Expansion pack or just Final Fantasy Online 1 & 2). If they are related, then make the title something more logical and manageable; like, if you wanted to be keeping with that stupid Fabula Crystal Nonsense, “Final Fantasy: Fabula Nova Crystallis I” or “Final Fantasy 13 Versus/Asiago/Gouda/Cheddar/Mozzarella”. Why make this title naming so cryptic, vague and unquestionably stupid?
I would like to point out that these are the same people who called Dissidia what it is and Dissidia
Duoduceum or whatever. What do those titles mean? Apart from the word(s)
that it was derived from and the words’ original meaning, the title has
nothing to do with anything of the game itself. The ONLY sensible thing that I can conclude from this chaotic world of madness is that Squenix assumes their audience is stupid and/or deluded. That the fans will buy ANYTHING that they pump out with the name Final Fantasy on it, regardless of the logic (or lack there of) that they throw into it. Now, it has been said that “insanity, by its very definition, cannot be understood” and that is what I declare this division by zero by Squenix to be: folie à plusieurs (a madness shared by many). You’d have to be crazy in order to say that this title naming makes sense in any logical rational way, regardless of what feeble excuse that Squenix throws out to justify it.
*deactivates Dragon Install*
Bottom line: Either name them differently enough to make them not related, or just say that they are related. Is that too hard to do?
And that’s all I have to say about that. Cya.
You said it yourself. The only thing they have in common is the title really. They’re NOT the same world. It’s just the same overarching mythology that involves the same deities and the same creation myth. l’cie and fal’cie should make an appearance in both games. However, what they are, what their role is in the world, and how they effect the characters and story will be COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. Two completely separate teams working on the games.
I’m actually shocked that you want to see FF13V. The game looks unbelieveably pretentious with a mopey emo lead who wears black all over; kinda like the worst parts of FF8 times a hundred.
You are right that the gameplay looks fucking sweet (you can commandeer mecha!?), but the sheer obvious fact that they’re pandering to fangirls with a broody male lead with his band of male friends for yaoi-bait just alienates me. I just want a FF game with a normal human being as a lead. Is that so much to ask?
From what I’ve read, apparently Noctis (main character) acts cool and tough because he’s actually very shy and introverted. I dunno, that kind of personality has potential for making a compelling character. Just depends what they do with it.
“Just depends what they do with it.” And THAT is the magic sentence. Every single FF game had great ideas but it just depended on what they did with them. Squall had potential to be a compelling character, but I pretty much agree with Spoony in how he turned out. That sort of character is hard to do well unless you write with skill, something I think Sqaure is lacking lately.
Also, it just feels fake to me. They shoved Vaan in FF12 because they needed a bishie for the lead, nevermind he gave nothing to the story. They made Lightning a female version of Cloud (lookswise anyhoo). Pandering to the base like that gives me severe doubt that they’ll flesh out Noctis as a person rather than making him Adorkable And Troubled.
I hate it when people mix up shyness and introvertedness with being “emo”. Yeah, all emo people are shy and introverted, but not all shy and introverted people are emo. I think that the character Noctis definitely has potential to be the “tragic hero” they’ve been trying to emulate for the story. I find their new endeavor to attempt a tragedy is very interesting since it has not been done before in the series. I feel that is what director Tetsuya Nomura is like anyway. He’s kind of an isolated and sad kinda guy. Besides, this is the Final Fantasy game he said he’s always wanted to create, and it’s also going to be his last before he focuses exclusively on the Kingdom Hearts franchise. So you know he’s taking Versus XIII very seriously. I guess that’s why it’s been in development for so long since, after all, they’ve stated that level and overall design are extremely important to the development team.
why hasn’t people point out the fail that’s Toriyama Motomu?
The auto-battle, as I think you were trying to explain, makes the game feel it’s on auto-pilot. While it does make the game play seem faster, it seems boring when all you’re doing is pressing the confirm button once every five to ten seconds. It only seems more so boring when the overall maps of FFXIII have you holding the joystick in one direction, only turning ever so slightly when something randomly interrupts your path.
while i didn’t like XIII, i am one of the few that enjoyed the combat system. the auto system just saved an extra press on the x button on a couple pushes from the d-pad to get through a menu tabs. i enjoyed the combat because of the paradigm shift. yes a lot of battles you could just press x, but a lot more would end up taking forever to do. shifting to the right paradigm allowed you to get through the battles faster and better star rating. they also allowed some freedom in lvling up your character.
the two things i didn’t like was the story. the world seemed cool, and i wasn’t offended by any of the characters, but the story wasn’t told very well. also there just seemed like too many sections of the game where just long extension to artificially extend the play time. maybe it was a lack of having a opened world caused that, but i don’t remember feeling that way when playing FFX.
The problem I have with that system is that you should never take control away from the player. This is why I liked gambits: not only did they give you supreme control over the AI, you could use as few or as many as you wanted. Not only did it allow for a highly customizable playstyle, it made fights a lot more frantic and you actually had a reason to rely on them while you issued other commands. It was far from perfect and did result in many battles where you basically sat and watched your party decimate the enemy but when it worked it worked.
The paradigm system feels like an evolution of QTEs. If God of War ever wanted to do something different for Kratos’ big, cinematic take-downs I could see them implementing something like this. As a full-blown battle system it is severely lacking. I want complexity in my RPGs and if they’re not gonna give that to me I don’t see why I shouldn’t watch a movie or read a novel instead.
So it has little to no connection to ff13, are completely different characters, play-style and story. than why does it have the ff13 logo on? Why not just call it ff15? or does the versus imply it wants to take 13′s place if its just that much better(and it cant be hard to be better than ff13).
If it is better does it kill ff13 and take its power?
i heard it’s in the same world, but i heard that before even FFXIII was out
and i still don’t get the hate FFXIII gets, at least not with the story, the gameplay i mostly agree on, but personally i really liked the story and the characters, and that’s what it’s mostly about.
Don’t know bout you but i don’t want to have to read the worlds encyclopedia Britannica before i know WTF is going on. I don’t want the characters to keep telling me things I easily figured out on my own long ago, I don’t want sudo philosophical poetry from people who are not good at it. It was long slow and to me boring. I got to 10 hours and felt like I accomplished nothing and had done very little to this world. After that 10 hours i traded it in and got red dead redemption.
And don’t give me “it gets better after 20-30 hours” cause I’m not buying it and it should have been good far before than.
They’re NOT the same world. It’s just the same overarching mythology that involves the same deities and the same creation myth. l’cie and fal’cie should make an appearance in both games. However, what they are, what their role is in the world, and how they effect the characters and story will be COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.
That’s just it the story has nothing to do with ff13 (thank god). So why not just name it ff15 and move on.
That’s what everyone thinks. The whole “Fabula Nova Crystallis Compilation was a huge mistake to begin with. FFType-0 moved onto its own series, and I’m praying Versus gets a name change. However, I don’t think it’ll be named XV (Like it should) because Kitase and Nomura believe it was too much of a departure of the main series (Bulshit). I think the title will cause confusion and possibly affect sales.
If you enjoy the gameplay of Kingdom Hearts and the stories of old school Final Fantasies and you HATED XIII, this game will make you blow your load.
They lied to youy Spoony, the game was not on E3 2011! That footage was from the square-enix event last year.
Type-0 and Versus XIII are both looking very promising. I’m not sure why they don’t just make them numbered titles in the series. There’s no relation to FFXIII.
Oh, and Versus will feature the music of Yoko Shimomura! YOKO SHIMOMURA!
Final Fantasy Versus XIII is part of “Fabula Nova Crystallis Final Fantasy” , an incredible pretentiously named spinoff-series somewhat related with FFXIII. Well, with the exception of XIII-2, none of those games even take place in the same friggin’ world. One game – Final Fantasy Agito XIII – even got its name changed into “Final Fantasy Type-0″ because it had NOTHING to do with XIII (and probably to distance it from this abomination).
Well, as far as Versus goes, it looks like Advent Children with the combat system from Kingdom Hearts. It may play nice, but it will be emo as fuck.
“If the story’s good, you can forgive a lot.”
Man, that’s a callback.
More on battle systems: I think the problem is that they’re focusing on making dull fights go by quicker when they should just get rid of the dull fights. They’re a relic of a bygone era when you had to throw an endless stream of random battles at the player to pad out the length of the experience.
A true next gen jRPG should focus on interaction with the story and the world over pure combat, kind of like a mix of adventure games with old school sensibilities. I’d also love it if puzzles made a comeback-do you guys remember that? RPGs with puzzles? Those were the days.
It reminds me of something I said about WoW: less enemies, less quests, more significant content. When there is less of something you can make it last longer and you can work in clever strategies to boot. I know that goes counter to the zen-like philosophy behind the level grind but so many games have already done away with that-and so many others remain on the market-that I don’t see why a AAA title like FF has to stay mired in the past.
In fact I thought that was the point: FF innovates, Dragon Quest does oldschool better than oldschool. DQ is still doing what it does, FF… They’re trying but man, they’ve gotta step up their game. Here’s to hoping Vs. XIII is where they turn it around.
… Actually, y’know, I’d kinda like to see a FF game with puzzles. Not the ridiculous mini-games or the boring tedium they’ve had in the previous games, but actual smart, interesting, plot-relevant puzzles. FF12 did this sorta well, with the small puzzles you needed to do in order to progress through the Stilshrine of Miriam.
And yeah, I’d like the death of all dull fights. I would praise the day where I could play an RPG and not fight stupid little rats, or bats, or dog-like creatures, or any random wildlife. All battle could be plot-relevant and interesting!
I felt like getting a little more elaborate: http://www.lordkat.com/blog/2653/what-if-rpg-battle-systems.html
As far as I know Versus wasn’t at E3 2011. But I wasn’t there, so who knows.
Nomura is a good game director.
He’s a good game director who is spread way too thin. He’s the character designer for every friggin game, he directs, conceptualizes, and writes the base story for every Kigdom Hearts game, and he has to do all that with Versus as well. So you know the game isn’t going to come out until late 2012 to mid 2013 (Or even after that).
The reason why Versus XIII has a gameplay similar to an action RPG is because the programmers behind Advent Children and Kingdom Hearts were programming it :D
I get what you were saying about the battle systems in these last few Final Fantasy games. To me, it sounds more like a “choose your own adventure” book, only on a gaming console, where “playing” it essentially amounts to turning to page 26 to use magic or to page 24 to attack with a weapon.
Really, if I wanted to watch a movie or read a book, I’d much rather forgo the controller altogether and just pick something out of the shelves and boxes of books and movies I’ve got around
As for FF13 Versus, I dunno. Maybe I should try it. I’ve been mulling over the idea of trying one of the newer games in the series for quite awhile now and just haven’t done it simply because I really haven’t been impressed with what’s been said about them.
Just checked out the Versus 13 trailers and… wow… I… I don’t know what to say.
As cliche and uninspiring as this may sound… it, looks like the most epic thing I’ve ever seen… It honestly makes me wanna come outta Video Game Retirement, buy a PS3 and witness this game even after I gave up hope on FF series after X-2. I still don’t quite understand Versus 13′s title though.
The trailers for “FF.VS.13″ alone made me think, “”THIS is what the first Final Fantasy movie should’ve been, not Spirits Within”". It looks like it takes itself serious for once and isn’t marketed to immature audiences who like stupid girly Anime shit. With a crisp theatrical action drama, hopefully this project will very well be what saves the series from the sappy crap that began piling up from FFVIII.
Thanks Spoony for posting this video. I had never heard of this game, don’t know if I’ll ever get to play it, but the trailer brought back that lost nostalgic anticipation I used to have when I thought FF was this wonderful escape from the real world.
I know this comment is long winded, but it was truly an incredible and inspiring vision within those trailers.
I don’t see why S-E and other RPG developers keep aiming these battle systems at the lowest common denominator.
We RPG fans LIKE turn based combat. Thats what we WANT. That’s what’s FUN to us.
If we wanted an action game we wouldn’t be buying this style of RPG. If an RPG at all.
I like variety in battle systems. I enjoy turn-based combat but I also love games like Star Ocean for their gameplay. (Lord knows there’s not much else to love about the last one.)
But even in the case of a frantic, action-based title like Star Ocean 4, there is an insane amount of depth. It’s not like God of War where you just need to time your button presses, you’ve also got resource management, multiple characters, spells and melee attacks which can be chained together. If they gave us something like that, or hell, if they refined FFXII’s system it would be a lot better than what we got.
The problem isn’t which system they use, it’s “streamlining”, that buzzword for, “we’re making this game so piss easy a mentally challenged orangutan could beat it by accident.” I know XIII wasn’t -that- easy and I’m sure the system could make for a frantic fight now and again, but the fact remains it’s as deep as a puddle and as an RPG fan that’s the biggest sin SE could have committed.
I am definitely an RPG fan, and to be honest, I look for real-time stuff about half of the time. Action-RPGs are brilliant, in my opinion. As long as there is some depth to it (be this in equipment, stats or both), whether it is turn based or not doesn’t matter to me. I love Final Fantasy IV, I love Eye of the Beholder, I love Fallout 3, I love Mass Effect, I love TES: Daggerfall, I love Chrono Trigger, I like Final Fantasy Tactics, etc. etc. I even like MMORPGs. It mostly interests me as long as it is an RPG in some way — I assume this is the case for many others as well. I know it is.
Don’t speak on the behalf of so many people. That statement of RPG fans wanting turn based combat is much too bold.
Please don’t speak for everyone else. There’s a genre called “Action RPG” for a reason. That’s what Versus XIII is and that’s what it was known to be since it’s announcement in 2006. But yeah, I wish XIII and XII had turn-based combat also, BELIEVE ME. I’ve already accepted that XIII-2 won’t be all that impressive in terms of the battle system. However, with a game like Versus, I feel that an Action RPG style of play is rather logical. Besided, from what I’ve been observing, RPG fans in the west seem prefer Western RPGs over JRPGs anyway. The East is losing its grip on the western audience. It’s sad to think about but that’s what I feel is happening. Versus XIII has been my most anticipated game since its announcement, although I will admit there wasn’t any information known about the game to make that legitimate, but I feel there is now. I’m glad Noah agrees though and that he’s looking forward to it. I think that’s a good sign especially since this is Square Enix’s last chance to win me back. I’m praying that Versus will become the Messiah of the Final Fantasy series that Noah prophesied in his E3 2011 Final Fantasy XIII-2 video. But I won’t hold my breath because it’ll probably be released by the time I send my kids off to college (I’m unmarried and 19).
“We RPG fans LIKE turn based combat. Thats what we WANT. That’s what’s FUN to us.”
I remember back to around 2006 or 2007 when the first trailers for Final Fantasy XIII and Final Fantasy Versus XIII first came out. I was absolutely amazed at the Versus trailer. It was dark, it was interesting, and it had beautiful music, which actually made me want the game, and want it a lot. Then when I saw the FFXIII trailer, I felt the opposite. It was boring, the music was bland, and I had no interest at all in it. It’s obvious which game Square Enix decided was most important, seeing as how we’re STILL waiting for Versus, AND there’s an XIII-2 planned that may even come out before it.
After seeing the new Versus trailer, I still feel the same, but I can’t help but worry. I played through FFXIII. I got to the “The End” screen. I know how fucking horrible it was, and how that somehow warrants a sequel in the eyes of Square Enix. That makes me wonder what Versus will be like. How can a game company make a game so horrible, and then want to make a sequel to it, still make a great game? I guess we’ll all find out eventually, and for me, Versus will be the game that decides whether I despise the Final Fantasy series or look at it as a neutral series that sometimes produces gold, and sometimes produces shit.
I’m starting to think the expression “so close and yet so far” was created solely to describe FF XIII. On the one hand the engine was innovative, on the other it desperately needed to be rebalanced. On the one hand there’s a gorgeous woman like Lightning NOT playing any standard “hot chick” roles, but as a mother figure, on the other the ending was lackluster and the beginning outright BAD, with only a narrow sliver of character-driven story between Odin and traveling to Pulse.
I’m still hopeful, though, that XIII-2 will be the game XIII SHOULD have been. We’ll see.
Versus XIII? It looks like a great game, but I no haz PS3.
what you cant see is the square employee standing off to the side holding a gun J.K.
however the SMT series had auto-battle where you just tapped the triangle button and you just sit back and watch the action unfold which is them just throwing physical attacks and since most of the enemies can reflect physical attacks it isnt always the best idea
however being the nihilistic pessimistic bastard that I iz, i am going to remain skeptical on this one
When you’ve been following Versus XIII as long as me, you kinda go a little crazy. I’m praying it’ll redeem the series.
Well Earthbound has an auto battle thing but its not a good idea to use it on tough enemies, things dont always work out. It’s manly for those weak repetitive enemies that you just want to get over with.
“If there’s a monster you face with a weakness, it’s always gonna have that weakness, so why not just have the characters cast the spell that exploits that weakness over and over again.”
This is the very beginnings of good game design. Classic game design was often about the player doing the same thing, making the same choices, again and again. That’s why we call it “grinding”.
Modern design sensibilities try to remove these aspects. And you can see it in FFXIII. Why bother having a maze-like dungeon if there’s only one place that you can go? Why bother making the player repeatedly select the same combat actions?
Fixing these is good design. The *problem* is that those aspects of games had some positive qualities. By removing them, they remove the negative qualities, but it also removes the *positive* ones. And if you don’t recognize that you threw the baby out with the bath water… well, you have FFXIII: a game that is a series of corridors where you do auto-battling.
By making your characters reasonably intelligent about combat action selection, you have now removed the player from the equation. And the problem and solution is in Spoony’s quote above.
Change the gameplay. Make weaknesses vary, so that the player *must* choose which to use. Make the enemies smarter as well, give *them* strategic options that the player has to react to.
Similarly with mazes in dungeons, the answer is in the question: make more than one place to go in a dungeon. Put stuff in it. Interesting, important stuff. Even if it isn’t important now, it can be important later.
Modern game designers have learned that older gameplay had some bad choices. But they need to learn that even the bad choices had good effects, and they need to learn to restore the good effects of bad decisions without going back to bad gameplay.
To use the words of Johnathan Blow (not exact quote): “We have engineered out way around boredom”. You’re right, we’ve learned that some older designs were flawed, they frustrate us, demotivate us, or anything bad. We take out frustrating elements. We motivate the player and take out demotivational elements. So if games are based on reward and punishment, what we are left with is only reward (in the extreme case).
So, all these things we hate–boredom, frustration, etc–are actually good, healthy responses to games. If there was no sadness, there’s be happiness. No boredom means no entertainment, relief requires frustration. Reward requires punishment.
FFXIII takes out everything we hate and leaves in heaven. A place of tedious goodness. Well, that’s the theory.
PS: “By making your characters reasonably intelligent about combat action selection, you have now removed the player from the equation.”
Yup. When i rented XIII, i found a great strategy was to always have the AI do medic-work because i might not be looking at the right health bar and my guy might die. I basically always gave the one i was controlling the least active role in battle because the AI was usually more informed on enemy weaknesses, ally’s healths, and support spells.
Not only has the player been taken out of most of the equation, the game rewards you for taking yourself further out.
I don’t agree that game design *must* be boring. The problem with Blow’s ideal is that he believes that game design needs to go back to the bad things. That we must *accept* that these bad things exist and even embrace them.
I believe we need to look at the good that some of those bad things do and find new things that are not bad, but create the good effects that those bad mechanics created.
The best example is the one you gave: health.
Who to heal is not a choice; it’s obvious. Given any particular circumstance, it is obvious who should be healed and who should not. One can easily write a script to perform near-perfect healing.
Blow would say that the game should not provide that script, because that would take away from the player. I would say that the game design should attack the fundamental problem: *healing*.
Look at how D&D 4th edition handled it. Clerics and other classes can attack people or perform effects that simply cause others to be healed. While it is usually divorced from reality (in that it makes no sense for someone to feel better because I hit one of my enemies with a warhammer), it is exactly the kind of mechanic that adds depth to healing. Another great thing they did was put a daily limit on healing; you get X healing surges per day, period. After that, you’re screwed.
Just take that last idea: a cap on how much healing you can do per-battle. You can’t just have a script spam healing at that point, because healing is a finite resource. If the script spends it capriciously, then the player can lose the battle through no fault of their own. So you can’t automate it.
I agree with everything you said, but there are a few things i need to set straight.
“I don’t agree that game design *must* be boring.”
Neither do i, nor does Blow. The point (mine, not Blow’s) was that a game *is* boring and removing elements that cause tedium, annoyance, and other bad things and leaving in only the “good” things leaves you with an experience with no ups, no downs, no excitement, no exaustion. I said they left in heaven, but it’s really purgatory because without bad, there is no good.
“The problem with Blow’s ideal is that he believes that game design needs
to go back to the bad things. That we must *accept* that these bad
things exist and even embrace them.”
I can see why you might think that’s Blow’s opinion from my out-of-context quote, but you’re actually responding to my opinion. See the bottom of this post for the video i got that quote from ; it’ll give a good deal of context.
I wasn’t trying to say that we need to embrace the bad, though we do. I guess what was missing from my first post is that the game is not fun on a fundumental level. By removing all the bad, you would assume that this bad game would become good, but such is not the case. It’s like how genetic modifications to fruits make them look better, but be nutritionally worse. 
“Blow would say that the game should not provide that script, because
that would take away from the player. I would say that the game design
should attack the fundamental problem: *healing*.”
I’ve never heard much of his actual design beliefs, so i don’t know he would say that.
Oh Spoony <3 I have never agreed with you more whole heartedly! Look I am one of the biggest Final Fantasy Fangirls out there. I started on FF7 when I was maybe 8 years old. I'm now 21 and that entire time I've waited anxiously for each game hoping it will make me feel like 7,8,9 and yes even 10 to some extent had. From 10-2 (that piece of hellspawn) on I've been hideously disappointed.
For all 7,8,9 and 10's faults they had great stories and/or characters. I've gasped and cried at twists or character moments. But in recent years the Final Fantasy series has seemed to morph into a souless gaudy monster and I have no idea why. FFXIII was fricking gorgeous but I was so incredibly underwhelmed by the story, hated most of the characters (and wanted them to die in a fire) and HATED the auto battling. Lightning was BORING I don't care how good looking and 'tough' seeming you make her. I had way more respect for say shy Garnet from FF9- her character development showed her becoming stronger, instead of telling us, they SHOWED us and let us figure things out for ourselves. Aeris was brave without it being forced, Cloud acknowleged personal weakness and flaws but carried on. He had a sense of humour! Advent Children not withstanding…. *coughpersonalityretconcough*
I was actively annoyed a lot in FFXIII, every two seconds they'd tell us something, like Snow 'I'm a hero!' or Hope 'I'll kill Snow!' and that'd be fine BUT THEY DIDN'T STOP TELLING US. Fucking hell shut up and DO something! Squall walked a ocean for Rinoa rather than whinge on like a whiny 12 year old for 5 game hours, they tried assasination, other characters had: jobs, lives, feeling, motivations, they cared for their team members! YYMV (but I loved Squall's development)
That said I too look forward to Versus, I hope it's a step back to good quality rather than gaudy crap. FFVII was brutal in parts, whimsical, gritty, creative. FFIX was heartbreaking, fantastic characters, melancholy. (PLEASE Spoony, you should really play FFIX sometime, you quickly become used to the graphics) I dare someone to watch the Alexander VS Bahamut Eidolon fight over Alexandria in FFIX without having chills… WHY CAN'T WE HAVE THAT QUALITY AGAIN? Despite being a little corny FFX was still great, faults aside, it's story was way more interesting and immersive than FFXIII. I even really really loved the battle system in FFXII – story however? Pretty crap.
How Square has turned a once touching series into what amounts to a cash cow when I know they're capable of more. I'm encouraged to see you seem impressed with Versus. Hopefully it comes out before I require the old age pension to buy it though…
“ I dare someone to watch the Alexander VS Bahamut Eidolon fight over Alexandria in FFIX without having chills… WHY CAN’T WE HAVE THAT QUALITY AGAIN?”
Now-a-days, we have the technology and disc space to have cinematics that blow that one out of the water. That’s the problem. Instead of saving their money and blowing it all on one FMV scene, they now spend more equally all throughout and we end up with much more samey cut scenes. Not helping is that SE likes to put gamers right in the action when they start the game.
This is really an industry-wide problem, IMO.
“WHY CAN’T WE HAVE THAT QUALITY AGAIN?”
Because this is 2011? :P Most series have progressed (Tales and Persona series) further than others who have gotten crappier (Mortal Kombat series). And when those series get crappier, that is when ambitious companies decide to go back to the basics and design a game that stays true to the old games while adding a fresh, modern experience. Much like Mortal Kombat 9. Final Fantasy? Well, let’s face. Every FF is independent, not sequels to each other. Because most of the games have different gameplay mechanics and aesthetics, can we really tell that FFI was a great game just because it’s the first? Or that FVII is a great game because of the maximum capacity that Square Enix used in the PS1? No matter how much we hate one FF game, we’re always going to look forward to the next one, which will still have that one “formula” that is different from every other FF. Like Versus XIII, which I’ve been looking forward to a lot more than XIII.
As for XII, it was the exact opposite to me. Story is great (hindered because of Vaan being the main character), but the gameplay was a repetitive crapfest.
yea i want him to try out final fantasy IX as well. right now im going through my first playthrough of the game im on disc 4 and have been playing for about a week and even though i don’t agree with or like some things in the game the story is amazing and its hard to stop playing after you get past the frozen cave and i would like to see his opinion on this game
…What? WHAT?! It was there?! Son of a bitch!
I’m hoping the story for XIII-2 will be better, and I think it will be if for this one reason: the new character, Noel, is an outsider, therefore, has no knowledge of the world he’s in now. I think you mentioned how the characters didn’t really explain what these new places were or about the vocabulary used in the game. Noel is supposed to be the player, no knowledge, just some battle instinct, that being instincts from playing other RPGs, not in real life XD.
As for XIII Versus, I was kind of surprised that you took interest in it. I was expecting a little rant for it, but you were actually fair with it.
Seen FF13-Versus trailer a few years ago and I was in AWE. The other 13 was bright, colorful, had that same “it’s a fantasy but with sci-fi technology world” thing that FF10 had… Honestly, it looked too bright and colorful just because it COULD be. No indication of story, music was just upbeat and boppy… Not to mention the battle-like screen popups the vid had was SO not what was in the game… FF13-Versus though, the music was an orchestrated opera and had a small excerpt of how that land has some kind of crystal of some sorts and the other territories want it. …Crystals, in a Final Fantasy game…. FF5 and FF4 jumped strait into my mind. Then, the guy just walked from the building into a small army and took them out like a boss. ….FF13-Versus made me wish I could get that game. I figured it would have been cut from America with how much better it looked/sounded over the other 13.
I’m surprised they didn’t say anything about Final Fantasy Type-0. I found out about that game back with the other two FF13 trailers and it was dubbed “Final Fantasy 13-Agito”. It was gonna be on the PSP and used that ATB system to control a few guys. It sounded like, if Harry Potter was mixed with Final Fantasy or something with how the characters are apart of some academy thing and have classes from the FF games (though spiffily matching their school’s colors).
after the sad defeat of 14 I saw this video and felt like commenting lol. If 14 did one thing for SE it opened their eyes to actually listen to the players rather then thinking what people want. In that sense I do have hopes that 13-2 will expand to have decent gameplay and storyline.
What really caught my eye though was how you did understand what SE was going for when they made auto-battle, I’m just wondering if you went through the whole game and completed everything including 5 stars with only using 2 paradigms. Anyways, what I find odd is how you don’t like the paradigms, where you say players don’t have the choice to do anything, that’s what the paradigms were used for. If you did all the side quest and such there are a wide variety well, I guess to level with you the main paradigms I recall using at least 6 paradgms switching between a tank and dd, to a tank and healers, to a group to enfeeble, a group to enhance and paradigms for staggering and then dishing out heavy damage. While paradigms can be focused on a few core it’s a tad strong to say you could get through the game with just 2 paradigms, unless you just mean the main plot, which could be true. However, even with bosses in that game the enfeebles actually worked and were useful in making a fight easier lol instead of just relying on getting to an obscenely high level.
if you think about things in the big sense it seems like ff13 turned into a scapegoat for SE while they worked on versus 13, it’ll never be fair to compare the two games because versus-13 has so much more production time behind it. As it stands now versus is still ps3 exclusive and if it stays that way it’ll just prove that it was a scapegoat lol. They released 13 to make a quick buck then released it for 360 as well to increase revenue. When 14 flopped they realized that they should show gamers more respect and decided to actually focus on what people want hence 13-2. I kinda see 13-2 as a way to say that the developers are listening to the playerbase so based on how that turns out we will know if SE actually learned anything lol.
As for versus it does look good though I do ponder why it’s taking so long to make, the battle system while it does look interesting, it doesn’t seem to be anything new. It does look like Kingdom Hearts so what exactly is taking so long to produce this game lol. It seems like everything is settled so it is odd how it’s still not released I mean if the battle system looked different I’d understand that they have to develop a core system but it kinda seem like, how much can we fit into this game. The trailer I saw it’s like they said, ok what do people want. fast paced combat, some fps action if they want, ability to control vehicles and mecha, open environment, a dark story. If anything I bet they are working on mini-games to add to the game lol cause honestly it does look to be done so I wonder what they are still working on with that.
Anyways good review I kinda hope you actually review 13-2 when it comes out next year I”m curious to hear your opinion on it, since you disapproved of 13 so much ye may find yourself impressed with the changes they made to 13-2. I enjoyed 13 so it would be hard for me to actually comment in a fair way to the changes of it however a person like yourself would be able to give a fair response to see if they actually tweaked it in ways people wanted it to be tweaked lol.
FF13-2 feels like FF13 because it’s made by the same team.
FF Versus 13 feels like Kingdom Heart because it’s made by the same team.
I think a better example of auto-battle than Persona would be Shin Megami Tensei Nocturn. You do one round, choosing everyone’s moves, then hit auto-battle (assuming the auto memory option is on) and they’ll do that ad nausea.
My problem with XIII’s battle system is that even if it were entertaining to have this paradigm system, it does not correlate to an ideal strategy. If you lose health and a character has a health spell, they should heal you. If this were turn-based, you could have a character heal you this turn, continue attacking the next. Telling a character to change his/her entire strategy in order to cast one spell is just bonkers.
But i think it could work, if only there was any real advantage given to having a paradigm in the first place. For example, if there was a freestyle paradigm, what reasons would there be for not using it? Is the only reason there isn’t one because it would defeat the purpose?
As a longtime “Nintendo loyalist,” I can tell you that I’ve had my concerns about the company’s direction a number of times in the past. Still, in the end, they’ve always done well by me.
The Wii U presentation instilled in me an even greater number of doubts than ever before. I really hope time will prove them wrong.
Ultimately, we need strong voices out there to present these fears. I don’t need to tell you this, but don’t be discouraged to speak your mind.
When you said the combat for Versus XIII looks like Kingdom Hearts, I completely agreed with you. BUT, that’s an example of how that fighting style worked well, an example of how it didn’t was with Crisis Core: FFVII, that one was just full of button spamming, and incredibly over powered magic spells. So I’m still on edge about Versus XIII, but I have high hopes for it.
I have reserved optimism about VS XIII. The combat looks interesting. It looks better than FFXIII by a lot, but I fear it will be a button mash fest without any depth and loot like Kingdom Hearts is. It made KH’s gameplay monotomous and boring.
You didn’t even like FFXII? As far as scripting, acting and directing goes, it is as good as Final Fantasy gets
I did enjoy the kingdom hearts series by quite a lot. The combat is fast, fun and intuitive. The character progression is satisfying with new spells, attacks and weapons.
Furthermore it has some of the best quick time events. The events isn’t a sequence of buttons but one button (usually triangle) which is triggered by a movement from your opponent. In time you can start to predict the quick time event.
Kingdom Hearts combat, Crisis Core materia system and a paradigm system that lets you change AI behavior is in my opinoin the foundation for an excellent and unique combat system.
I’m so glad you have hope for the Final Fantasy series with Versus XIII plus the game’s director, Tetsuya Nomura, is NOT in charge of costume design so the characters dress more realistically than the people of Spira.
Are you okay with fact THIS game will take place in a modern-day city because this means it’s not an old-school game.