The Spoony Experiment - Because bad movies and games deserve to be hurt back!

http://www.facebook.com/jonathan.hemmila Jonathan Hemmila

I really love your posts. You are one of the few, after several years, that I still listen to. That being said, cut your hair? I think you should have a very iconic look, one your own, that immediately tells us “wow, it’s Spoony!”. Time to distinguish yourself from the average reviewer! Remember Max Headroom? I can still see him every time I look at Matt Frewer. I think you should get a mullet, or w/e that can be identified immediately instead of a “i don’t cut my hair” look. Just saying…

Kyle Rybski

God, no.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1506378338 Jesse Franciskovic

I think he should continue to grow his hair out and join me in a windmilling session.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Vaughan-MacDonald/100000473507885 Vaughan MacDonald

Hehe, look at Oreo there, fast asleep.

Renaissance_nerd

I got an answer for you Spoony, 4 words: Arcane archer prestige class.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002396860376 Jakub Łosiowski

I would like to see spoony doing some videos on shadowrun some variety would be nice.

solidsnakeus

In my current 4th Edition campaign, we are up against Gloomfang, an Adult Black Dragon, and this was a fight we really didn’t want. We actually accidentally summoned him because our one player rolled a high roll for a Ghost Sound encounter power and he did a dragon call to frighten the people we are up against… but it lured in Gloomfang, so that wasn’t good. We got pinned in a cave at one point, blinded him, so he backed away, out of the cave and started to flail blinded up in the air, we all ran out, tried to hide, and then decided to get the hell out of there to the next biggest cave, where we somewhat got him a bit stuck and in an area where he can’t fly away from us, so he is limited to ground combat. Flanking him, and wear away as much as we can on him. We are currently stopped half way through the fight.

http://twitter.com/BHGOzzy BHGOzzy

Granted, I won’t touch D&D with a standard 10′ pole of Reaching, but yeah, I’ve screwed this up myself plenty of times… though there was the one time my party decided to fight a blue dragon in the sky… using an airship… and the wood elf decided to throw vials of alchemist fire at it repeatedly until it died…

That was actually kinda cool.

D3adCat

I’m more of a player than a gm, but spoony’s right! You have to learn to fight wise as a player (and also as a gm), and I did with star wars d6 (west end games) because of the wound system. A tech can’t afford to take hits, so you need to find a way to take part in the fight and do your part without getting killed, using your brain.

And I have to say, I’m an art student in montreal. With all the stuff that happened during the summer, I went to protests and got charged by the cop’s horses, it is fucking intimidating!!!

Renaissance_nerd

and Kobalds will straight up Zerg your ass. get 100 or so of them and just swarm away

GunsmithKitten

And then there’s the traps…oh, kobold traps….
http://twitter.com/Das_Bass Das_Bass

The Kobalds cry out “kekekekeke” as they swarm and rip you apart.

http://www.facebook.com/michael.swny Michael Sweeney

If you’re saying the archer won’t do much damage, you’re obviously not playing Pathfinder

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1844873291 Alexander James

I got an ansewer to the dragon I carry a grapple hook with 120 feet of rope and climb the dragon

http://projectkork.blogspot.com DerKork

Okay, let’s say you do that. You manage to get the hook to stick in the dragon, now what? The dragon will pull you off ground (and you have a hard time holding onto your rope), fly up in the air and shake you off – or maybe just destroy your rope with its breath weapon without hurting itself. You’ll have a hard time if that dragon acts at least somewhat smart, because you find no time to climb up.. Or do you think the dragon will hover and let you climb on its back?

Kyle Rybski

I feel like this was half directed at Big Mike and his dragon in your ConBravo game.

http://sbkmulletman.deviantart.com/ sbkMulletMan

Though to be fair, Big Mike probably had better plans in store for his dragon.

Little did he know, a snarky bard with his own plans was lurking just behind the nearest tree!
- http://twitter.com/Das_Bass Das_Bass
  
  Spoony has said you never give the PCs a chance to fight something before you want them too. See his No Jedi one for that. They see the Sith they’re going to follow and kill him waaay before you as the DM want to use him.

http://sbkmulletman.deviantart.com/ sbkMulletMan

It really is sad how cut and dry dragons have become in all fiction and gaming. As much as I loved Skyrim, that game alone did significant damage to their image. Dragons are really intimidating at first, but then they become nothing but a goddamn nuisance and a waste of your time because of how common they are, and when you’re dropping dragons as if they were freaking zubats, that dragon is NOT scary anymore! Even the end battle with Alduin was nothing but a goddamn joke with no punchline.

One game that actually did dragons very well (at least for a time) was the original EverQuest. As expansions came out (especially velious), dragons got tougher and tougher and scarier. With very few exceptions, dragons were vicious boss characters that you did not toy with. But even then, as tactics developed from players and equipment got stronger, the dragons were more vulnerable and weren’t as bad, but even then, they weren’t to be taken lightly.

I like the way Spoony actually gives *thought* to the dragon, actually thinking how it would fight on its own terms. Dragons should be more than just big, dumb lizards that occasionally puke some kind of blast at you.

Mr. Sefe

This is why I never play vanilla Bethesda games. They all (Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout, Skyrim) are extremely poorly balanced. I recommend rebalancing mods that bring back the fear of monsters and keeps the challenge even in higher levels.

http://twitter.com/TheFinalEnding The Fallen One

I’m guessing you learned a-lot of stuff from Shin Megami Tensei, one of the only RPG’s that will fucking end you if you let it.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003736054405 Justin Gay

To be fair in Skyrim you usually have to knock the Dragon out of the sky. Also unless you’re ready a Alder or Ancient Dragon can fuck you up, especially in melee mode, some have insta kills.

Two video games off the top of my head with badass Dragon would be Dragon Age Origins and Dragon’s Dogma. In Origins you run across plenty of Drakes or young Dragons but when you meet the High Dragon and I don’t mean the Arch Demon or Flemoth you’re in for a fight.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Peter-Paizs/1068134059 Peter Paizs

Add Baldur’s Gate 2 to the list. Dragon fights were amongst the most challenging in the game =) But the satisfaction when you killed one was unmatched by anything.
- Atmos_Duality
  
  Assuming one did not abuse certain known combos and glitches.
  
  I remember players ostensibly bragging about how they punched Fiirkraag to death solo or killing the black dragon in one hit.
  
  Spell Sequencers were broken, and so was “fake-talking” which basically played with the NPC-hostility triggers to let you attack a target without them attacking back.
  
  Or Spike Trap stacking…
  
  I remember snuffing them out handily with a pair of Sequencers, just to see if I could. Twas most boring. I reloaded my save, and did it properly. Much more entertaining and a great fight to the death.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Jamie-Sheil/594748387 Jamie Sheil

the high dragon is a bitch of a fight, but for he does stay on the ground and let you wail on him for the majority of the fight. Although he will still fuck you up lol.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000270812903 Luke Liszewski

The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings is similar. 1st encounter, you don’t fight, you run. 2nd (and last) encounter, if you’re playing on anything above easy, you’ll get fucked up if you’re not ready

http://twitter.com/Mezzannine Bill Newman

If we’re talking Pathfinder/3.5 cross I got a crossbow to do enough damage as an Alchemist to kill the Tarrasque at level 5 in round one, dependent on a lot of source books.
Archery can dish out surprising damage if you know how to build a character for it.

http://twitter.com/Hubbe128 Hubbe King

Halflings. +1 to Throwing Shit.

Mr. Sefe

Lol, for a moment I imagined bunch of halfling flinging turds at party :D

GunsmithKitten

I can happily say that my experiences with dragons in D&D, both AD&D and 3.5 were never random, and never easy. When our GM used a dragon, it was the wrath of the gods come down on our arrogant level 20 PC heads. We never take down a dragon in the open. It only landed after at least three strafing runs, when it decided to squash us like bugs on it’s landings (adult dragons are BIG!!), THEN wing buffet, THEN tail slap, and THEN take off again for more strafing! That’s not even counting it’s spells! (which it did use). We had to scatter and pray for good rolls just to keep from a TPK.

http://profiles.google.com/jordanselby Jordan Selby

Thanks for the info, Spoony. Always love your Counter Monkeys.

Please consider putting in more personal stories when telling your counter monkeys. We love the long videos! :)

magnusk_98

While I generally approve of what Spoony discusses here, I kinda wonder why he isn’t even mentioning Pathfinder in his short discussion of archery damage. Especially given how he was running a Pathfinder campaign not short ago.

Archery in Pathfinder is *way* better than what Spoony says here. If you have one dedicated archer in the group, that dragon better take him out immediately, or it will be a pincushion in no time. The damage output is very good and archers get a lot more attacks than melee characters, too.

Also, bows totally confer their damage bonus to the arrows in D&D 3.5 and in Pathfinder. Spoony got that wrong.

http://www.facebook.com/michael.swny Michael Sweeney

Yeah it’s kind of scary what even a part time archer can do in Pathfinder
- Atmos_Duality
  
  That’s because Pathfinder was amending hilarious design flaws in D&D 3.5.
  One of which being how impressively…BAD archers were in 3.5
  
  Sure, enough splatbooks and twink gave them the potential to be awesome EVENTUALLY, but by that point, every other role and archetype was filled with broken interactions, gamebreaking spells, and melee feats that would let a monk just chain-hadoken or flying kick shit to death.
  
  I remember my friend making a martial artist who, through feat abuse, was able to trip a Honeybee in mid-flight. Not swat it out of the sky, but trip and subdue it without killing it.
  
  Looney Tunes logic reigned 3.5 towards the end…
doresh

The best part is that the dragon nullifies the archer’s only weakness (namely that archers stay back instead of tanking the monsters for the much squishier wizards). A flying enemy means that there’s no real “front”, so it doesn’t matter if you tank or not XD
http://www.facebook.com/Geeksqrd Jon ‘Geeksquared’ Thurtell

forget Archery damage. Summoned creatures, druids with weather control. casters with fly. monks and bards the Dimensional Dervish feat chain. There’s a ton of ways to take down a a large flying monster that you can’t reach with a sword.

http://www.facebook.com/synthz Artur Radomyski

Skirmishers are not a Roman tactic – they’re a Hellenic (Greek) tactic, used along with the hoplites. That’s why there’s javelin throw on the Olympics ever since the freakin’ dawn of time.

A roman tactic is a similar one, but not exactly – they would carry huge shields along with a few javelins, so they’d actually throw a special kind of javelin at you (a pilum) and then charge the shit out of you.

Also – if you’re talking bandit tactics, the deadly combination historically used to be horses AND nets – you mentioned them both, now imagine them combined.

About the dragons – isn’t the general idea that if you shoot the dragon enough, you kinda fuck up its wings (which are huge and un-armoured) and force it to land? That’s what they seem to do in all the books. And you could argue that a young, non-adult dragon wouldn’t be strong enough to keep flying for too long, so it’d have to land eventually. But I agree about playin’ it smart.

Also, if an intelligent aquatic race was to ambush someone on a river, I always imagined they’d like to build some kind of a dam in spot that would be problematic for the party, and then shoot the fuckers from behind the dam.

UmmonTL

In my group, dragons are still scary. Our first dragon was a baby blue dragon we encountered in a big cave full of treasure at the end of a big dungeon. We got our asses kicked around the lair but we managed to whittle him down until he decides to stop guarding the treasure and escape. Of course we try to get it and with a grab/immobilize we stop him for a moment allowing the thief to jump on his back. Then he got a critical backstab and still the dragon almost got away. And of course, a second later we see the elder dragon mommy heading for the cave. So it’s grab treasure and run back into the dungeon where the dragon can’t get us.

Much later, the city we all started in and did most of our adventuring from was taken over by some cult of the eye which of course was a scheme by a beholder. Again we have a hard fight, we get the beholder and as we crawl from his dark citadel, bleeding and broken, who do we see flying over the city? The mommy dragon and the people in the streets cheering their dragon savior. Moments later she tells the city to capture us and bring us before her so we have to escape, losing our main base and access to the biggest coastal city of the kingdom. From then on, whenever we got near that place we could get jumped by entire regiments of city guards. And we couldn’t really fight her because we would probably destroy half the city with our fight.

The next time we saw big momma we were sailing towards the homelands of the beholders, we had been spotted by a ship from that city and so we have an elder blue dragon fighting us while we’re on a ship. Try that for a lesson of don’t get on the boat. By that time however our wizard could open a portal in one round so we could escape and even rescue some of the ships crew.

Another dragon encounter was with a big green dragon who had some sort of magical macguffin in his lair. We heard stories about him before, how he seemed to be everywhere in his domain at once. No idea what to make of it so we attack his lair, a giant dead tree corrupting the surrounding forest in both the normal plane as well as the feywild. Since he was defending his treasure he also didn’t just nuke us from outside our range. But when we got him just below half health he flew out of the lair, flew back in and was fully healed. He laughed at us, told us he was invincible but we keep fighting. We get him down again, he tries to pull the same trick but this time we anchor him with a spell. At which point a second identical dragon comes in and kicks our asses. They were actually twins pretending to be just one dragon so coming in was the dragon we fought first, fully healed by now of course.

We are epic level now and to this day we haven’t managed to kill a dragon, mostly because our adventures have much higher stakes and getting revenge on a dragon who just stays in his lair isn’t high priority. And the blue dragon doesn’t really terrorize the city, he just uses it as a shield from us and a source of wealth. But yeah, dragons are fucking scary because they will not fight fair.

http://twitter.com/Das_Bass Das_Bass

Just a week ago I watched a video as Spoony and friends spinal tap a dragon.

http://twitter.com/nfm1337 Jonas Håkansson

Man, I can’t get enough of listening to Spoony talk about rpgs. Anyone know of a good podcast or something about roleplaying?

http://www.facebook.com/rush2112fan Patrick Bondurant

The dragon in Champions of Norrath 2 was a bitch to fight.

http://twitter.com/ADavidO1987 Arthur O’Connor

When I played 2nd edition, The way to kill a dragon was, Disintegrate. A dragon would NEVER make their save against disintegrate.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Joe-Hall/100000745849532 Joe Hall

Holy sh-t these ae coming out at a marvelous rate! Keep em coming spoony!

ClemensTheMenace

Of course Dragons can go into melee. It’s called the Snatch, Breath and Drop tactic and it’s killing even a PC with a huge amount of HP in one round.(even barbarians and fighters). Start a grapple- dragon normally wins. PC is in dragons mouth. Flyby attack -dragon gets in the air- shoots breath weaopn at the rest of the party. PC in mouth falls 60 feet to the ground. And the graeat thing:This works fory any dragon!(of course the older ones are better because their stats are higher) I’ve done this a lot of time and this tactic wil make your Party respect ANY dragon. :)

Renaissance_nerd

or you can use a basic eagle tactic. Eagles hunt turtles and they figured out how to crack the shell. they take the turtle in their talons fly up about 100-200 feet then drop the turtle. He smacks so hard on the ground it cracks open the shell.

now just imagine an armored adventurer is the turtle.

Michos

Spoony. I’m worried. Do you even sleep? Or are you making those videos 24/7 now?

Bathmatt

I think he recorded a whole bunch of these in one go and is drip-feeding them to us.

http://www.facebook.com/baval.tojo Baval Alphanzago Tojo

Spoony i sometimes wonder just how much D&D youve actually played…
Dragons breath weapons recharge 1d4 rounds and magic bows impart their enchantments to their ammunition.

Still, good tip about playing dragons smart! So many DMs forget to play monsters to their full capability

Renaissance_nerd

i thought it was weird when he said magic ammo, but i don’t play 4th edition so i thought it could have changed.
http://www.facebook.com/Geeksqrd Jon ‘Geeksquared’ Thurtell

Remember that most groups have at least a couple of ouse rules. I’ve played with a group that insisted on magic ammunition for a damage bonus even though that isn’t RAW.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Chris-Bradshaw/100000539846890 Chris Bradshaw

I thought it was pretty canon that kobolds use traps and ambush tactics.

Bathmatt

Pretty much. I’ve seen the term “kobold-cong” used a few times over the years to describe how devious the buggers can be.
- Agrippa911
  
  This all goes back to Tucker’s Kobolds.
  - http://www.facebook.com/people/Chris-Bradshaw/100000539846890 Chris Bradshaw
    
    oh wow, I never knew about Tucker’s Kobolds. That’s actually kind of amazing.

Bathmatt

Y’know, I don’t think I’ve ever fought a dragon in a tabletop game. Video games, sure, but not with pen and dice. As a result I have absolutely no idea how to take them down.

http://www.facebook.com/rolland.therrien Rolland Therrien

You can get damn Evil when plotting encounters, if you just take the time to read the Monster’s stats, especially it’s movement abilities, spell abilities and special powers. Just taking the Dragons for example, they have a LOT more options to them beyond “circle and strafe”. Black and Green Dragons can breathe underwater. Blacks live in swamps, so they can lie in wait like alligators, popping out of the water to breathe their acid on the party, then dive down, use an underground water passage to circle behind the party, and then burst out to grab the cleric or wizard with a claw or bite attack, and yank them down under to drown them. Blues and Whites can burrow in sand and snow, respectively. Have the Blue circle and strafe as an opener, then let him land some distance away from the party, only to grin and burrow under when they charge in, and then all of a sudden the party’s fighting a graboid with lightning breath. Reds can see through smoke and, once past Juvenile, can cast Pyrotechnics, which (among other things), can turn a fire into a cloud of smoke. Circle and Strafe with a shot of Fire, then use Pyrotechniques to turn the burning grassfire into a cloud of smoke to blind the party, making the silly mammals’ ranged attacks useless.

And that’s just Dragons! If you look at other Monsters’ spell-like abilities, you can see some revealing stuff. Did you know nearly ALL Demons can Greater Teleport AT WILL? Makes you wonder why they bother giving them legs and wings, when they can pop all over the battlefield willy-nilly.

amishman

Nothing better then keeping the players on there toes and being tactful i always loved doing that, one of my favorite times was the group had to clear out a group of elven bandits in the forest now some of you can tell whats about to happen with no prep they just march into said forest and it was ugly random arrow shots from thick woods, traps, and they had to turn back before even one real encounter but when they went back to town and planned out what to do they made it to the camp and killed the bandits like a team and i rewarded them with some extra loot for doing so.

MaxGladwell

I can’t quite think of the name right now, but someone built a dungeon entirely occupied by low level kobolds that a team at max level are never going to get through without ranged weapons, specifically to encourage creativity in players and DMs alike.

It involved small gaps in the walls that they’d climb through where swords and spears wouldn’t reach, kobolds who would break their own bows when near death to prevent players getting them, all sorts of tricks like that.

doresh

Do you mean the infamous Tucker’s kobolds?
- MaxGladwell
  
  Probably.

Carteeg_Struve

A part of me would like to see Dragonlance rebooted with DL1 ending with Tanis and crew fleeing Xak Tsaroth at high speed with a trail of urine leading back to a smirking Onyx. It might be interesting to see how things would had progressed from there.

http://www.facebook.com/bruno.a.marques Bruno Alves Marques

Preach that truth brother Spoony. But seriously I’ve been saying what you’ve said in this to SO many people for so long in my rp communities. And still I always praise people who fight smartly against my encounters. I would totally love to sit down with you one day and swap GM notes.

Vanvidum

A wizard player particularly ought to know better than enthusiastically supporting the idea of going into battle with a dragon on mere whim. Wizards know they can only be prepared for certain things each day, and that limitation ought to shape their whole approach.

Like with the TPK example–If I was the wizard, when the party was even considering going after it, I’d roll an knowledge check on dragons for their breath weapon type. If we have spells or magic items available for resistance or immunity toward that elemental/energy type, the party is in a vastly better position from the get-go. But that’d only be a start! You’d want to know where the dragon usually patrols and what its habits were. Then maybe you could ambush it in its cave, or plan some other trap for it. If you can do all that, the wizard, the cleric, etc can prepare more useful spells and stock up on scrolls or wands to cover some the contingency plans–And one of those contingencies ought to be, “Oh, crap we need to GTFO NOW!”

Maybe I’m putting too much emphasis on this, but a wizard is supposed to fight with his brain first and foremost. And that means ensuring the odds are tilted in the party’s favor before and during any encounter through intelligent planning. If you simply want to play a hot-headed over-eager spellcaster, play a sorcerer.

Sandahl192

Spell restrictions vary depending on the system being played. My groups system is MP based, so we can throw whatever so long as we know it and have the mp for it.
Our group’s favorite tactic though is mediation. We’re of the mind, “If it’s intelligent, it can be reasoned with. Let’s talk.” With help with a buddy back at base, we were able to talk a dragon, who was blocking our path, into letting us pass. No scales were scratched, no hairs were singed; we were awesome.
- Vanvidum
  
  That’s certainly the best solution to most dragon encounters. Depending on the setting, system, and alignment rules, you might even be fairly confident in that option for particular dragons. Knowing that this particular type of dragon is always/typically good or neutral would leave negotiation as the most obvious choice.
  
  In my current Pathfinder campaign, our DM has warned us that races and creatures can be of any alignment (though that doesn’t apply to outsiders if I remember right), so it’s impossible to know whether this intelligent creature you’ve never met before is bent on acts of the vilest evil or simply a scary-looking Mother Theresa just by looking at them. That’s as it should be, I think. Attempting to speak with a dragon in that setting would feel like a very serious risk, and simply attacking one without knowing better might mean senselessly assaulting a powerful but benevolent being.
  
  It seems like it’d be a lot more fun for both the party and the GM for the players to try a peaceful encounter, regardless of setting. If nothing else, dragons are interesting personalities with a great degree of knowledge, and it’s an opportunity for some very, very cautious and polite role-playing.
  - Sandahl192
    
    For instances of random alignment, we usually have at least one person in the group with the ability to sense motive. We also usually have someone who can sense magic.
    
    Below I wrote about an encounter where we could not negotiate. Bear in mind that the dragon was not nerfed when the “npc” crit. XD
flamedance58

Don’t Dragons also usually have some amount of Spell Resistance?
- Vanvidum
  
  Yeah, that would be another part of the challenge. The party’s casters would have to focus on stuff that bypasses SR (like Forcecage) or simply be of high enough level to gamble on blowing through it. Though the other option is to invest in a lot of buffs, support, or summoning spells. SR isn’t an issue if you’re casting haste on the party, or casting spells on weapons in order to get through the dragon’s damage reduction.
  
  Even before worrying about all this, the party needs to ask if fighting the dragon is really necessary–and if it is, whether they’re genuinely capable of it at that point in the campaign. Maybe the dragon is utterly evil, and has been slaughtering people across the Kingdom for no reason other than treasure and personal amusement. Fine, that’s a good enough reason to want to fight it. But unless the party is of really high level, it’s worth asking if there are indirect approaches to take. Maybe you can work with the King to organize a battle with the support of NPCs and the (surely far greater) resources of a kingdom. Maybe there’s a magic MacGuffin that can weaken or destroy the dragon on its own, or is the source of the dragon’s power. Maybe the party can enlist the aid of a good-aligned dragon, or other powerful creature/outsider.
  
  Preparing for a fight like this depends on what (or who) you’re working with, and the circumstances you expect to be in. It’s a chance to be creative, sneaky, or come up with something new. And that’s a heck of a lot more fun than fighting a dragon as if it’s just a bigger, more powerful mook.
  - http://twitter.com/incarnedine_v Dan Hibiki
    
    Back in the day you had some nice spells that can bypass a lot of the dragon’s defenses, like cloud kill and earlier versions of finger of death which had a good chance of bypassing spell resistance and instantly killing a dragon.
    
    Then there’s of course elemental summonings that are quite capable of tanking dragons.
    
    Getting a dragon cornered though, that’s tough.

MrRuse

Pro tip; if you’re a two-handed sword user and fall into the water: Halbschwerd. Grab the sword halfway by the blade and use it as a short stabbing weapon. You might do less damage (depending on your DM), but it’s better than trying to fistfight a lizarman while you float amidst his buddies.

http://twitter.com/DigitalWarriors James Drover

My favorite dragon encounter I created was against a black dragon. This dragon lived at the button of a sunken tower in a swamp, the bottom floor had collapsed and the water below was black, stagnant and disease ridden, in other words a black dragons favorite environment. The party had to slowly go down this slippery near vertical area using platforms and cover and halfway down the dragon peaked its head out of the water and used its breath weapon on them and than sunk back in. Every round they were vulnerable and had do dodge spells and breath weapons. My group was smart and prepared actually doing research, and through a clever use of spells and abilities and the paladin going near suicidal as a distraction, they won. I try to make dragons scary but the group has been playing with me for to long and knows how to prepare. And small tip to new players, aim for the wings bring it down! Oh bonus tip for dm’s if your party is high level can kick some ass with their high level magic, use anti magic zone on the dragon they will not be prepared, without their magic the players are fucked, without their magic a dragon is still a fucking dragon.

doresh

I don’t think I’d ever use those young dragons (without their mother and siblings around, that is). It’s just stupid to offer to let low-level groups get accustomed to an usually high-level threat.

I’ve read a very funny tactic that involves the dragon swooping down, grappling a hero with its bite attack, flying back up, roasting the hero with a breath attack from point blank – and then letting him fall down. Ouch…

In 3rd edition and Pathfinder, a magic bow will enchant the arrows, giving them a damage bonus as well (unless the arrow in questio already has a stronger bonus). And at least in Pathfinder, trained archers can deal quite a lot of damage. So the dragon has a harder time, but then again, he can just buff himself.
But you actually NEED magical ranged weapons because dragons have DR/magic. A lousy d8 bow would deal at most 3 damage, and that’s only if the dragon is a weak one. Stronger ones are basically immune against any nonmagical weapon.

You can throw magic missiles at will, but you might have a wand with 50 magic missiles or even lightning bolts. But since wizards are a bit squishy, they won’t get to use the wand THAT often against the dragon…

The scariest dragons I’ve seen in a game? The Dark Eye. True, there are lots of smaller or more animalistic dragons around, but the REAL dragons are pretty much impervious to one-handed weapons, real BEASTS in combat, and their magic is much stronger and downright overpowered compared to the magic used by lesser species.
For additional lulz, use the Greatwyrm – with 3 heads for 3 times the amount of bites and breath attacks!

And it’s a real shame that later editions removed the morale rules. Some might prefer to roleplay them, but a lot of times, GMs just ignore morale…

As for Kobolds, there’s actually a story about “Tucker’s kobolds”. The kobolds were so effective and annoying that the (high-level) adventurers made a bee-line for the deeper dungeon levels with its less annoying demons XD

Sriseru

I’m probably getting flamed to death for this but…

I wouldn’t want to fuck with a dragon?
I beg to differ, I would want to fuck with a dragon. Literally.

SpongerobertoSquarepantalones

Blue dragons love using illusions.

Guess how many players explicitly attempt to disbelieve when a dragon casts a spell and a handful of other dragons come flying on?

Spoiler: not many

Blizz3112

Deep Dragons in 3.5 too, and they themselves are practically immune to illusions due to their permanent True Vision sight. They are also very small in size (They are Large size when Adult), so they are much harder to deal with in their own lair, while them also being very deceptive and easily tricking people in traps before finishing them off due to them being expert shape changers…

http://www.facebook.com/lucas.allen.96 Lucas Allen

If dragons aren’t scary anymore, I blame How to Train Your Dragon. Good movie, but way too many cute dragons.

The only way dragons can be scary again is when we see Smaug in the second or third Hobbit movie. Heard it’ll look freaking amazing!

Sandahl192

Coming full circle to the Undead dragon my character had hot on her tail; the beast finally followed her back to base. It rose out of the sea and passed through the shield wall to begin its attack at the docks. Every player character and capable npc was on to fight this thing. Land phase begins.
In this fight our GM had us roll for some of the npcs because we had quite a bit. We go through a few rounds and are able to deal okay amounts of damage per hit by focusing on its elemental weaknesses.(nature and holy) We also used movement imparing spells to keep it from swinging at us with it’s claws. It’s maw was also muzzled with entangling roots.
The dragon has 5k hp, so we knew that we weren’t going to be able to muzzle/impaire it forever. Especially when it decided to go to air phase. Our GM was having a blast….until someone crit on one of the npcs. The guy’s sword technique was powerful enough as it is for it’s base damage, but he was also imbuing the attack with holy damage. The total damage came out to 5045. There was no air phase. Needless to say he’s probably not going to let us players roll for npcs ever again.
Though I will say that this wasn’t the first time something like this happened. He had a villain that was supposed to stay in the story for awhile. At our first encounter with him, everyone rolled a crit on attack. The guy was dismembered in the first round.
Though the dragon fight was short, we did come to the conclusion that we had spies at the base. With the shield wall up and being powered by a load bearing artifact, there was no way that it could get through without being let in. This made for some interesting role play as we had to test everyone at the base, and in a subtle manner, in order to find out who were spies and who were not.

http://www.facebook.com/niklas.lundquist.5 Niklas Lundquist

i´m playing a D&D campaign with my friends our party is in a magic tower and the path is blocked by a room with a young white dragon chained to the floor. the dragon is 200 years old and the tower is so-posed to have been abandoned for 500 years.

Shauna

Move! Get out the cave! Get out the cave, bitch, get out the cave!

http://www.facebook.com/myotishia Myotishia Ravenwood

lol Oreo stealing the show. But I agree with dragons in RP’s. It irritates me when dragons get nerfed just to make a few characters ego’s grow.

http://www.facebook.com/strong.and.masculine Kalle Matias Kolari

About dragons; they’re smart and powerful and all but aren’t they also one of the most arrogant creatures around? Could a player use that to their advantage and to get them in melee? Taunt a dragon? Enrage them somehow so that the player can lead them somewhere? I don’t really know.

http://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/ Amesang

What, like go “Commando” on their ass? “I don’t need no gun!”
http://www.facebook.com/people/Mads-Bolding-Fenger-Poulsen/1513209391 Mads Bolding Fenger Poulsen

Nothing is in my mind more likely to happen from that than the dragon torching the taunting annoyance of the humanoid.

http://twitter.com/RoppongiCoffee Mr. RHC

I’d like to get into RPG, but I probably wouldn’t find a party anywhere! :D

http://www.facebook.com/people/Dustin-Harms/100001059387972 Dustin Harms

I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with you that the arcane caster’s only options are to cast ranged damaging spells or buffs. The real strength of a Wizard is in battlefield control, and even in 2nd edition, you are better off casting status inducing, or area denial spells. With a typical dragon’s poor maneuverability and low dexterity, a simple (level 2) Web spell can sometimes slow one to the point where remaining in flight while circling is nearly impossible, at least for a couple rounds, at which point it’s on the ground long enough for the party to dogpile the sucker.
At level 10, as per your example, a typical archer will have 3 attacks per round (4 with a timely Haste buff from the Wizard, and this assuming 3.5ed), and the mage will have access to level 5 spells, which is where you start seeing your first major Save or Die options, if you feel confident against the beast’s SR. No matter what, it will be a tough fight, but with good tactics, the odds become much more even.
Naturally, if the party goes in with ‘Durrr, I are Wizard blow things up!’ and ‘Rawr, I haz sword!’ then they’re gonna get slaughtered by lowly Harpies, let alone a Dragon :)

http://www.facebook.com/stephinw Stephin Williams

Dinobots on DLC and a new Counter Monkey.
Gonna be a good day.

http://www.facebook.com/ased.zazx Ased Zazx

Spoony, I know you mentioned it in your boat video, did you play Ravenloft a lot? October coming soon, I want to hear your Ravenloft stories!

Zeithri

I agree with this so much, it’s what I have been saying myself.
So tired of seeing Dragons as nothing more than a pushover.

That being said, I do kinda disagree with the whole “A Dragon wouldn’t go into melee range” because if we think about it, a Dragon is huge, it’s claws is as big as a bike or a car, it’s huge overall and immensly strong. If you’d try and block the claw of a Dragon, it’d rip that plate armor to shreads and your shield in just one blow, and if it wouldn’t, you’d still fly away and suffer possible grave injury from one hit alone.

Like take for example the dragon Flamewing (D&D Tower of Doom, another one appears in Shadows over Mystara – Speaking of which, where the hell can I even find books about Mystara?). His breath weapon is an instant kill on you, he casts fireballs, he knocks the ceiling causing rocks to fall down and if he swipes you, you take an absurd amount of damage while flying like a glove through the air.

Drake in Shadowrun on the Snes, unless you have spammed the spell “Armor” on yourself preferable coupled with invisibility, he will scorch you in a matter of seconds, even if you are wearing the best armor and have max in every stat. Also the Dragon in the Sega Genesis version ( Licourtrix ), who helps you against a demi-god!

The only way I can think of how to deal with a Dragon is to either to talk with it or to target it’s wings – at which point you’re probably dead anyway.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Noelle-Myers/682522006 Noelle Myers

One of our first encounters was a black acid-spewing drake. :| I took it down at level 1 because I’m fucking hardcore.

chronische

Spoony’s points also apply to all intelligent monsters. Demons, wizards,
whatever. If it can fly and buff up, it should. If it can wreck you
from a safe distance, it should. A wizard with stoneskin and magical
protections up has plenty of time to ruin you worse than a dragon ever
could.

Atmos_Duality

Except the real dragons in D&D are also high level wizards/sorcerers…so it’s like fighting a wizard with 5 times the hit die, and stacked to the moons in stats.
- chronische
  
  A wizard of the same CR as a dragon will utterly wreck you, faster than a dragon would at high levels. High level wizards can vaporize dragons. Spellcasters are no jokes. Yes, dragons are tough, can fly at will (prepare with a windstorm spell or something like that) have breath weapons (prepare with elemental resistances) and lots of HP and powerful melee attacks (spellcasters can melt the HP, fighters tank out the damage) their spellcasting abilities aren’t all that high for their age levels. At high age levels, a wizard would be much higher level and therefore MASSIVELY more of a threat. That’s why lich>dragons.
  - Atmos_Duality
    
    Perhaps I should have amended my statement…to include that it depends highly on the system and setting.
    
    Never forget the golden rule of tabletop RPGs.
    “In a game of scalable numbers, there is always a higher number.”
    Which basically means, whatever you just imagined, I can imagine worse.
    Either through superior math, equipment, race, or some broken interaction of the rules.
    
    The argument changes radically depending on which version of D&D we’re talking about.
    
    In 3.5, Dragons got spellcaster levels in addition to monster levels, but had to take either separately. Lower magic, which gave pure spellcasters an edge.
    
    In 2E, they were spellcasters of equivalent level (so no, the wizard is definitely NOT more powerful. They were strictly worse by stats and racial bonuses alone. It’s why Dragon-slaying gear exists as much in the same commodity as undead-slaying gear)
    
    Unless you got the jump on them, or were twinked out to the gills, you died if the dragon was worth anything.
    (High level magic is UTTERLY BROKEN in 2E.)
    
    I’m not as familiar with 4E, but I’m assuming that they rebalanced monster levels to incorporate balanced initiative, and brought dragons down a notch from 2E, but up a notch from the joke they were in 3.5E
    
    Pathfinder is its own ball of wax.
    
    So, I’m just going to preemptively kill the stupid “X is better than Y, because Z” nonsense right here.
    
    Liches are not always better (I’ve one-shotted Liches 7 levels my superior in 3.5…they aren’t that as long as you’re properly prepared). Dragons are not always better. Wizards are not always better.
    - chronische
      
      2e dragons were something to worry about… There was no ‘monster level’ stuff in 2e, and a dragon had to be pretty old to get access to the good stuff, 6th level and above. (Liches however pretty much always have at least 8th level spells and even if you kill it, unless you find and destroy the phylactery it’s going to come back and ruin your day)
      
      You are right, though. It does depend on what game and what rules you are talking about. It doesn’t matter in the end, because no matter what foe is stronger than another, your party is still going to have a bad, bad time.

http://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/ Amesang

I’m immediately reminded of how annoying dragons were in “Ultima V: Warriors of Destiny” if you didn’t have Lord British’s crown to nullify enemy magic. Not only could they take a lot of punishment from high-level characters and dish it out in turn, they could summon demons that could possess you or members of your party, causing infighting, or they’d summon more demons that would posses you or summon MORE demons, etc., etc.

Willam Edmonds

Skyrim dragons are joke in the air. Their stream of fire is easy to get away from. I never was killed by a dragon in the air. Once they land you can do more damage but dragon have a much easier time as well. The only time that Skyrim dragon are dangerous in the sky is when I was fighting two dragons, and one dragon was on the ground while the other was using the flames from the air.

That is there seem to be a coping a pasting of what monsters are from one universe to the next. Who says all dragon must have breath weapon or can recover it? There are no rule saying that dragon must be this in a game. Look at how to Train your Dragon. They have massive dragons and one the size of small dogs.

My point is that there is no reason that dragon in your world must all be defined in a narrow ideal. In Skyrim there are dragons that shoot stream of fire that are easy to dodge and huge dragons that have more powers. There is nothing wrong with that or that in some universes dragons are pushover.

Coregoth88

Also in my 4 Ed. game the Ranger hit everytime with this shot that would make a target go PRONE! So every round I had to waste the young white dragons move action by having it just stand up, so it never could fly away again it was grounded and then pounded by the party! It sucked ass!

Blizz3112

I used that tactics with the Hobgoblins in the D&D Next playtest… They are so well organized, that they just use Crossbow from afar, and try to stay in the dark for advantage. Player hurls stone with Light cast on it, Hobgoblin decides to pick up stone, and put it in his backpack, then run back for cover… Players got annoyed by this tactic, but it showed that they needed to think it through when fighting these guys…

http://twitter.com/CheeMoonYeo Chee Moon Yeo

The Discworld novel Guards! Guards! not only was very respectful to the classic Dragon, but also had a great moment in which the Dragon compared its own species to that of humans.
Not going to spoil it for those who haven’t read it, but let’s just say that it was one of the best moments in the entire book.
I agree with Spoony’s views on how dragons should be regarded and portrayed. You never just toss one into the story or to the players as just another “very tough fight”. You have to put in a significant amount of time and effort to give this encounter to the party so that they are able to truly comprehend the intensity of the situation they were put into.
Not just insanely tough and powerful, but also among the most intelligent creatures in fantasy. I remember reading some Fighting Fantasy gamebooks that contained dragons. Some treated them with the respect they should be given, others did not. Legend of Zagor had one particular dragon known as the War Dragon.
It was goddamn terrifying. And not only that, but even the manner in which it stores its treasure is awesome.

Blizz3112

Yeah, I loved the ending of it, since it was totally unpredictable, which Terry Pratchett seems to have a knack for… ;-)

http://www.facebook.com/randall.bohannan Randall Bohannan

Here is one I did years ago in a campaign. Took an average dungeon, & positioned a genius level mob(half-orc thief) that he & a few buddies managed to awe/take over a good-sized Kobold tribe on level 1. The place was filled with vertical shafts, dead end tunnels, ledges and rope bridges over chasms, traps etc; but the villians hold off –they basically avoid the adventures at all costs initially–letting them fights with giants rats, spiders & soforth; leaving them to pass to the lower levels. The players had contempt for such cowardly enemies (and lack of desire to go up and down vertical shafts) that they bypast to the “good levels” for better loot/xp.
As the party returned later, loaded down with loot, less hit points & needing to rest/recover, I hit them hard! Shifting passageways to split the party, slides into pits with snakes, lava, & poisoned spikes. Pitfalls, rockslides, detours, destroyed bridges. Kobolds using modified Pilums (roman one shot javelins that disabled a shield), poisoned blow darts(used often on targets with bad fort saves-like wizards), flamable shafts(smoke filled = choaking hazards); cramped tunnels where swinging large weapons would be impossible, and funneling targets so they can’t bring numbers to bear. I used one room from an old trap book that sealed when the 3ed person entered and filled with river water almost to the top -15x15x30. Anyone inside would drown unless they could swim-very hard to do in heavy armor/gear. After the room filled, the bottom of the room would flush with a strong side current , removing all gear into another area of the level into a filter, where the kobolds could sort through it later. The trap resets, and your 3 soaked players are now gearless and very, very mad.
Basically–once you get your targets into your kobold-engineered death trapped area, they are so hosed. Combine them with stolen ranged weaponry such as light/heavy crossbows, blowguns, poison types; or you could have them working with the thieves guild in town where they split the loot by specializing in targeting rich adventure types, you suddenly turn a very weak encounter into an extremely deadly foe with poison, ranged weapons, good intel on players numbers and makeup; most players won’t even see it coming. XP should increase significantly though (assuming any survive). I landed a total TPK when I did this with a group of 5 5th level, experienced gamers. Their new characters came back & got revenge, but it was a hard, drawn out, running battle that was NOT easy. For higher level players, you could add some kobold shamans for magic/healing/hex support, attack dogs or similar animal that works well in tight quarters (honey badgers come to mind), or even a self destruct option–maybe they can divert the local river into the dungeon with some drainage tunnels & explosives; kobolds do have a lot of time on their hands when adventures aren’t around.

http://twitter.com/ADavidO1987 Arthur O’Connor

Kobolds! Never doubt the power of tricky traps.

http://twitter.com/quadrus340 George Turner

Ah, glorious monster tactics. It is so rare that DMs actually use them. Makes me remember how after beating a wave of crazed kobolds our 1st lvl party entered a sort of gallery room… It seemed fairly quite until kobold leader and his trusted crossbowmen started sniping us from hidden positions. My dwarf paladin took a bolt in the head and died. Others were heavily injured, but eventually managed to find cover and spot the little bastards. Though my character died it was a very fun and satisfying encounter.

André

To build on what Spoony said, dragons should NEVER be confronted and/or challenged lightly. Why? Here’s link to a picture of a dragon from Privateer Press’ “Iron Kingdoms” setting: http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f287/InvaderZahn/TorukScale.png

Those tiny creatures in the bottom left corner? Humans. Now, while I understand that dragons in D&D are not as large as Lord Toruk up there (as far as I understand), they should still be something that you’d never, ever challenge without having enough plans and backups to those plans to embarras Batman.

http://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/ Amesang

With regards to size, I actually find it rather comical how some artists interpret dragons and other such beings, such as Ancalagon the Black from “The Silmarillion.” I mean I know the guy was big, but seriously? I guess it depends on how one reads “…and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin.” (Thangorodrim being three peaks of slag raised up by Morgoth, Middle-earth’s first “Dark Lord.”)

http://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/wallpapers/ancalagon.png
- André
  
  Considering the size of the guy in the foreground, I guess the artist interpreted Thangorodrim as three moderate hills. Still, yeah, that guy’d need an olympic stadium to house him.
  As for the link I posted, dragons in the Iron Kingdoms are more akin to Cthulhu than traditional D&D dragons. They’re immortal, their presence is poisonous to all life around them, they’ve got enormous magical powers… essentially, dragons in the IK are Gods made flesh.
  Point stands though; something with a mouth 5ft across is not something you should be happy to face.

http://www.facebook.com/laura.rola.9 Laura Rola

Dark Souls has one flight capable dragon that you can optionally fight, and he’s an absolute monster post-patch (he could be killed with one arrow pre-patch due to a glitch). His fire attacks will go through shields and hurt like crazy, fire resistance or not, and his physical attacks are basically unblockable (or inefficient to block). Bottom line, you have to be as cheap as possible to take him down. The other dragons are dangerous too, but they can’t fly, and they’re mandatory fights, so its a little nicer for you.

mightysamurai

Is there a central website you can view Springboard videos like you could with Blip?

Drakedragon

Spoony, these videos inspire me so much as a GM. I’m currently doing a campaign, and learning the ins and outs of being a GM, and these Countermonkey videos teach me quite a lot. I look forward to seeing more and more of these. ^_^

http://www.facebook.com/subtrahend Joshua Miller

In third ed a magical bow bestows its enhancement bonus (and qualities) to ammo fired from it.
And I never really partied with a melee group. Range and cover is much better for survival.

summersundries

Love the consistency of these videos. Really excited to have a brand new Spoony video every few days. PS. would love to see a video on your opinion/explanation on the different versions of DND, because I personally don’t know anything about the different editions and what the difference is in playing them (total Newb).

http://twitter.com/DrydAykma Dryd Aykma

Don’t expect this rate to stay the same. I think Spoony should hoard his countermonkey videos. As long as he got a couple videos a month I’d be happy, and I expect he’ll experience a schedule slip sooner or later.

http://twitter.com/MexRAGE MexRAGE

4e’s encounter with a dragon flying in the air….a ranged knock prone attack hit the dragon on the sky…the dragon move it’s speed down to the surface….then fall and pummel to the ground for fall damage. breath weapon is inferior to what they can do on melee if the party is spread, a dragon circle around breath attack every 3 rounds (in average) won’t be able to drop the party and the party will probably found cover from it, forcing the dragon to either give up and leave, or go to the ground and make it personal.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Patrick-Varnava/100000107273657 Patrick Varnava

I was playing through FF1 on PSP reccently, and while I was trudging along in the final dungeon, I ran into multiple Green Dragon enimes my Knight could kill with a single melee attack. Lots of EXP, but kind of letdown fight.

Antti Iisakki Bräysy

Why dragons land in Skyrim? Maybe they run out of stamina. Some time when I have fought against dragon, mother-fucker haven’t landed, until it suffered significant damage. Also, dragons are intelligent, if you have shield and Elemental Protection perk or good ward spell, dragons really don’t have a chance against you while they fly. Beside dragons are proud creature, so to me it’s not wonder that they want to kill you if you dare to challenge it, even if it’s mean landing to kill you.

Mateusz K.

If I may suggest something to Spoony is to pause the video, look the info up and shower us with data…. I’d like to hear the mechanics. But still, this is all great advice for players and DM’s and I love it :)

Jim Thorpe

I ran a game with probably the most hilarious player response to dragons I’ve ever witnessed. They’ve been exploring and clearing out some caves because a cabal of wizards running a slave-based mining operation in the frozen north suggested it’d be a good idea. The second cave complex they enter is kind of cramped, and it has a dragon inside. They turn to flee. There’s another dragon. A mated couple. What do my players do?

They turn into real estate salesmen. “Uh, hey, Great Venerable Dragons, there’s a great cave just about a mile and a half down the mountain. Has a skylight and everything.”

http://www.facebook.com/sean.williams.7583992 Sean Williams

thinking about it, finding and klilling a baby dragon could be a good start to a long quest, were you try and defeat/escape its all powerful, VERY pissed off mom. maybe something were the dragon dosent attack the party, just nukes all the towns/ citys they visit , turning them into total pariah’s that no sane man will give shelter too…

marabackman

Sounds a bit like the really disturbing subplot from “Order of the Stick” about what happens when a killed monster has an angry mommy…

Glyndwr

1:02 Oh, we ran into Mama dragon. And then we ran into Grandpa dragon.

sifer2

Funny I was playing Dark Souls PC edition, and in the new content there
is a Dragon who does exactly that. He wont land he just nukes you from
the sky. You have to do a sidequest to enlist the help of a Giant Archer
to shoot the ass hole down with his huge Bow. Then your able to fight
the crippled Dragon on the ground. It does make a lot more sense than
how they always land so you can hack away at their legs like in most
games.

http://twitter.com/DrydAykma Dryd Aykma

Even the dragon that does land is still a bastard to fight. You run on that bridge, you get close, and it will land. And it will fuck you up.

Gborr

You know what I would REALLY love to see? Spoony recounting another of his favorite campaigns, like the Thieves’ World one. These technical videos are good as well, but I would really love to hear another grand story like that, even if it wasn’t necessarily that funny.

marabackman

After your explanation, I can think of only one legitimate reason why a dragon would land and fight its opponents on the ground: It’s so overconfident that it wants to play with its prey, like a cat. I’ve always pictured dragons as having a personality like an anthropomorphized cat, being both lazy and deadly.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Zachary-Weiner/834737903 Zachary Weiner

Love these Counter Monkey stories and strategies. Hoping to use them for my D&D party

http://www.facebook.com/arne.maes Arne Maes

Roman infrantry also carried javelins, they were fond of harrassing their enemy before battle was joined, this tactic was especially effective against the Barbarians they conquered, who were often not very heavily armoured.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Filipe-Isabelinho/100000173498272 Filipe Isabelinho

Try Demons/Dark Souls for bad ass dragons. FUCK FIGHTING A DRAGON! Even melee, unless you’re godly already and even then… I don’t know, because I’ve never reached that high a level in those games.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=679507792 Hugh Sullivan

Yeah, I played an Arcane Archer in a high-level Pathfinder campaign a while back… I was basically a half-elf machine gun. And since every arrow I fired was treated as a magic weapon, I could get through any DR /magic. So even against blob/construct types that I couldn’t sneak attack (Oh yeah… this was a high level gestalt campaign and we belonged to an assassin’s guild, so most of us had at least a few levels of rogue or ninja. We were WAY overpowered.) I could do plenty of damage.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Nash-Knight/740228999 Nash Knight

Why the hell are you even playing D&D 4th Ed??

Onnuri Kwak

Yeah, Spoony’s right, dragons are like a 130 spooky, unless, one party has acess to great amount of RPG, Heat Seeking Missiles, or Anti Air guns, it’s really bad idea to fight them in first place.unless you are Bloody Enclave! Spoony’s right about others as well, those monsters will use brin to out smart and crush players with thier tactics and technologies! Wait, come to think of it, players doesn’t have any chance against these guys…. then why would I play this kinda game when I can play video games which I can feel bad ass about?

http://www.facebook.com/people/Cody-Ward/100001744038901 Cody Ward

I think it’s important to note that in Skyrim, the only reason you can fight dragons, let alone kill them routinely is because you’re the Dragonborn. Even if the town guard manage to bring down a dragon on their own, unless you’re there to eat their soul, that dragon will be up and ready for round 2. Also, how badass is a dragon that can force his way into Valhalla and make a snack of the greatest warriors there?

http://www.facebook.com/connor.delaney3 Connor David Delaney

this is why I love thief or Bagilar only because it is easy to escape those sort of situations

Derpin

Unfortunately, playing enemies intelligently with enemy tactics can be a double-edged sword. Case in point: Tucker’s Kobolds. Whenever players read about Tucker and his nasty Kobolds, they suddenly want to run a campaign with these sorts of Kobolds. This can be beneficial in the sense that it presents a challenge, but it can also be bad, because having every single encounter be a difficult tactical battle (with random dice numbers being an important variable) can become tedious.

Finding a balance is the key. You don’t want to be Gygax circa Tomb of Horrors, out to kill your players, unless of course your players are pissing you off or if they want you to run that sort of game.

I think the best thing to take out of this Counter Monkey is to not play your monsters like an AI from a video game. Apply logic.

Also… don’t mean to come off as pretentious or something, but Red Dragons, the dragons most players encounter while adventuring, are hoarding, arrogant jerks. “Because red dragons are so confident, they seldom pause to appraise an adversary…. A red dragon lands to attack small, weak creatures with its claws and bite rather than obliterating them with its breath weapon, so as not to destroy any treasure they might be carrying.”

Pretty sure the other dragons aren’t that cocky though.

That said, good video, enjoyed it thoroughly. Hopefully it’ll help some aspiring DMs learn how to create meaningful combat encounters, because, to be honest, I’ve been a part of more than one campaign where the combat was bland and predictable. Not very enjoyable!

Agrippa911

Damnit, you posted about Tucker’s Kobolds a nano-second before me.
- Derpin
  
  Heh!
  
  It’s bound to come up though. Always does when it comes to monster tactics.
http://twitter.com/HallowXIII HallowXIII

Actually, the thing about Red Dragon arrogance isn’t that much of a problem. Just have that bastard cast Bull’s Strength and Mage Armor on himself, maybe Greater Magic Fang, and DING! Utterly undefeatable combat monster :D

Agrippa911

The problem is most GM’s don’t treat monsters/encounters as truly living and thinking beings (I was probably as guilty as everyone else). They’re just thrown at the party for some excitement, some loot, and some XP. I think a really good DM would make most monsters behave appropriately smart (there shouldn’t be any “stupid” monsters otherwise they’d never have survived this long) and each encounter shouldn’t be a given walkover.

I think the best story of how one DM made a low-level monster into the most terrifying opponent is Tucker’s Kobolds. It’s an old story from the early days of AD&D and was recounted by the editor, Roger E. Moore, in Dragon Magazine #127. He describes them as “just regular kobolds, with 1-4 hp and all that, but they were mean. When I say they were mean, I mean they were bad, Jim. They graduated magna cum laude from the Sauron Institute for the Criminally Vicious.” They’d ambush, snipe, throw missiles and grenades, and simply terrify a party that was much much higher level (6-12). Weak monsters can be a challenge if properly lead.

As for skirmishers, that’s not just a Roman thing. It was used pretty much throughout history. They’re simply lightly armed and equipped soldiers who don’t move in any formation and fight before the line of battle. Their job is to screen the battle line and just harass their opponents with missiles. Or attack enemy skirmishers trying to do the same to their battle line. Usually both will withdraw as the two battle lines come together. They also functioned as scouts or were used in terrain that heavy infantry couldn’t operate.

http://www.facebook.com/alexander.wood.963 Alexander Wood

If you’re going to roleplay foes being tactical in combat, shouldn’t you also roleplay morale, Total War style?

Kimarous

I don’t have any D&D stories, but I share your appreciation of tactically smart enemies, especially dragons. As much as I like Skyrim, dragons are more like a chore than a challenge. In “Warlock: Masters of the Arcane,” dragons will dominate you unless you fight smart and buff your units like crazy. Helping their case is the fact that they are aerial opponents that never land, and they have high ranged resistance. On the other hand, they have minimal melee defence by comparison, so smart people like myself can send legions of flying, invisible dwarves to hammer them into aerial jelly. It was pie after that, but even so, they were a huge pain before I figured that out.

Daniel Kay

I generally hate using dragons as enemies but more of personal
preference, and if they are used as such cannon fodder it gets much
worse (F Skyrim for pulling the dragon slayer shit).
It’s a strange variant of the “strawman fallacy” in a way, you don’t
really fight a real one, you fight a caricature you prop up as the real
thing to feel like a big hero.

Though personally I don’t really like making dragons human intelligent,
instead I’d make them animals with intelligence. They don’t think like
humans, they can’t speak or flawlessly interact, but they can learn and
have problem solving skills.
Also I’d maybe say they do have a limit to their “flame breath” being
able to fire spray a few times and a powerful fireball maybe once or
twice before it takes a day to recover.

PS:
On the “lizardmen cutting the ropes of your raft” thing, I was thinking EXACTLY that when you mentioned encountering them in a river on a raft.

BrendanConcannon

When Spoony said that a party member had a chance at fighting a dragon, when he or she cast the FLY spell, I nearly fell on the ground and died laughing.
First, 4th Edition made is nigh impossible to gain flight. You can cast this one piece of shit daily power that lasts only 5 minutes or until the end of an encounter. FLY 8 squares (40 ft) per round, wow.
Second, in 3.5 Edition, FLY gave you a flight speed of 60 feet per round (40 if you were wearing medium or heavier armor).
Thirdly, in Pathfinder or 3.75 Edition, FLY is essentially the same as the 3.5 edition spell. It gave a bonus to flight checks (in that game, FLY needed skill checks for complex turns or for when taking damage to prevent falling).
There’s an OVERLAND FLIGHT spell that lasts much longer than the typical FLY spell, but it has a speed of only 40 ft per round (30 if wearing medium or heavy armor).
So let’s take a look at the Pathfinder (3.75) edition of the Dragon:
A TINY Wyrmling Dragon, the most lightweight type, has a base fly speed of 100 ft. A TINY dragon can fly faster than the FLY spell. This dragon just pecked itself out of an egg and it can fly faster than just about anything.
A COLOSSAL Great Wyrm Dragon, the most heavyweight type, has a base fly speed of 250 ft. Hell, even the Ancient GARGANTUAN Dragons have a base fly speed of 250 ft.
The bottom line is this: The party is never going to outfly a dragon. Unless a Wizard pours deep into the most splattiest of splat books, he’s not giving anyone a better flight speed.

doresh

Don’t forget that Pathfinder introduced the Fly skill. Since most PCs probably don’t have any ranks in it, they must solely rely on the Fly spell’s bonus of 1/2 caster level – which is pretty low for quite a while, meaning that they will have a severe disadvantage in aerial combat (damage taken requires a DC 10 check to avoid losing altitude, and strong winds can be deadly for those amateurs).

Suffice to say, the only somewhat safe way to do aerial combat would be flying mounts, since most PCs can probably ride a lot better than they can fly – not to mention that the mount actually knows what the hell it’s doing up there. Plus, it looks a lot more epic XD

But when it all comes down to it, the best help against a chromatic dragon is probably a metallic one.

http://www.facebook.com/adam.lowrey.5 Adam Lowrey

This is ties into what every player at high level learns(10)+, some sort of flight is a must, or else you will be useless. Dosen’t matter what your role is. The fact of the matter is that a large percentage of 3/3.5/pathfinder monsters cr10+ have some sort flight with some sort of range ability. Don’t know about 4th, and hackmaster … how do you survive to level 10 without the players killing each other over stuff like the knight errant killing the plot hook because he looked like a evil wizard?

http://www.facebook.com/people/Robert-Ragland/590767177 Robert Ragland

Dexterity damage, either with magic or more likely poison. Load up hollow arrows with a dex based poison, make yourself immune to its breath weapon type or use an anti-magic field to negate its spells and breath weapon. Then figure out how to carry its horde back after you kill it in 2 rounds, and avoid the dm’s angry looks. Also dragons are cocky sons and will often melee because they don’t see the gang of monkeys as a threat.

SeanMcTiernan

Dragon takes one look at that field, and leaves to get periapt of proof against poison, along with several other things that will help put the odds squarely back in his favor. They know what magic items look like (You know, like the ones they always seem to have in their hoard?), as well as the difference between your basic adventurers come to kick in the door, and the anti-dragon hit squad completely built to take him down personally. Don’t confuse draconic pride with massive idiocy.
- http://www.facebook.com/people/Robert-Ragland/590767177 Robert Ragland
  
  Unless i am forgetting something he wouldn’t know the arrows were poisonous until they had hit him and started to work, given that red dragon has a dex of 10 at tops one or two arrows(from anyone with a bow and a decent bab) with a 1d6/1d6 dex poison would paralyze it before it could escape. Second even if it ran off to get magical immunity to poison anti-magic field would still negate that and make the tactic valid again. Also pride isn’t the word i would use to describe it, it isn’t nearly a strong enough term to state how high they think of themselves. In Eberron they honestly believe every other races gods are simply dead dragons who ascended to give the primitives something to worship. Also attacking a dragon is stupid unless you really take the time and energy to stack the deck against it, and force it to fight you say by stealing from its horde when it ran out of its lair….also expect to lose player characters, their families, and any town they spent the night in.
  - SeanMcTiernan
    
    Except that, again, any party specced out to kill a dragon LOOKS like a party specced out to kill a dragon. Poison on a weapon is more importantly *visible*, as it would be some sort of liquid or sap added to the weapon.
    
    Dragon notices Anti-Magic Shield (Having Detect Magic, they can see the blank spot of magic. No party is going to try and face a drag completely without magic normally, so the absence would be notable), waits outside shield with poison immunity, and it’s breath weapon is non-magical. Party can now not heal itself.
    
    Okay, but there’s a difference between pride in your heritage, and completely disregarding the most common threat dragons face. They’ll do it the same way parties do it: “oh hey, what kind of party is that? Hm, okay.”
    
    This is also a reason that dragons employ minions, especially powerful ones. They are *forcing* you to expend, to wear yourselves down, so that they can better gauge your fighting strength. They also give him an early warning system, so on the advent that you are just guttering stomping your way through, he can fuse the doors shut with fire and get out.
    - http://www.facebook.com/people/Robert-Ragland/590767177 Robert Ragland
      
      I cant argue that a equipped party looks equipped so i wont even try. However at least personally that is one hell of a spot check to notice a little liquid on tips of some arrows from hundreds of feet away while flying. Then a knowledge check to realize that the shade of green means that it is mild *insert poisonous animal* venom which does dex damage and therefore he needs to go become poison immune to counter it.
      A dragons breath weapon is magical effect and subject to anti=magic field (page 66 of the draconomicon) and while i wouldn’t suggest negating healing spells or the wizard as a usual tactic it isn’t something the dragon or dm would expect. Also the intent is simply to use the poison to beat it in the first round of combat, failing that you probably should try running or teleporting away once outside of the anti-magic zone.
      On the note of pride vs being stupid, the injury to its standing with other dragons for having to run away from humans might force it to act against prudence. I am not saying it would land and run head first into an army and only attack one at a time, but it might make him stay and fight a small band of adventurers without running back to his horde and equipping first.
      There is no real counter to the minion argument other there is a chance they would be guarding his layer and horde as opposed to exhausting themselves trying to keep up with him as he goes off and kills some randoms jack-offs
      There are two points left to be made, the first is that the poison tactic isn’t intended to a long drawn out fight. If it is going to work it would have to happen after one or two rounds otherwise you gave up far too much and gained very little in return. It is more of a Hail Mary than a every day tactic and needs to be treated as such. Second if properly prepared there is no chance a party of any size or strength could kill a dragon of any significant age, put the dragon in some enchanted armor and you can get his ac above the ability for any party to hit him. Throw in magic items and you can be poison immune, but why stop there give him a sphere of annihilation and a legion of max hp fire giants in plate armor with +5 vorpal keened fire burst huge greatswords. You have to give the party a chance to defeat what they are fighting or you aren’t making the game fun for anyone, if your goal is simply to kill them then just keep throwing thunderstorms at them and say their armor and weapons are lighting rods till they are dead. The poison strategy is simply a unusual tactic that a random dragon shouldn’t have a million contingency plans for that it can spring on a moments notice. That doesn’t mean the party should win automatically, but they should be rewarded for their creativity and intelligence for attacking a weakness by not stacking the odds unfairly against them by saying the dragon spots their wet weapons and summons an army of demons to protect it while it gets its doomsday weapon.
      Besides if a bunch of randoms people killed a great wyrm dragon with poison arrows chances are good they would become famous and make a campaign’s worth of villians at the same time.
    - SeanMcTiernan
      
      First action of every party: “I ready my weapon!”
      
      Dragons have insane perception checks, so why assume they’re all blind and dumb? Hawks, BTW, spot small mice in an overgrown field from hundreds of feet up, and Dragons have superior eyesight, so no, they’ll spot it. As to knowing, they don’t need to KNOW, they need only suspect. There’s really only one reason to put sap or liquid on a weapon, and whether the poison effects Dex or not, it still has to get through his Fort save first. The Periapt is a low-level Magical Item, it’s not even really rare.
      
      BTW, Dragon casts “Protection from Arrows”, since the anti-mag field’s in place way down below, guess what that means? Yup, no arrows pierce the Dragon’s hide, and thus, no poison damage. He instead grabs big fucking rocks, and drops them on the party till either they leave the field, or die. Alternatively, The dragon just sets everything on fire *around the zone, allowing the plains to burn to ash until the effect goes away, and now the party’s trapped in a zone of burning death.
      
      Dragons don’t just barrel off to go hit “random jack-offs”. Again, they have brains, and use them.
      
      Or do you want the dragons run as dumb, horribly handicapped beasts? I never mentioned “a million contingencies”.

http://www.facebook.com/gary.c.forrest Gary C. Adam Forrest

Awesome Vid Spoony, I couldn’t agree more with putting some soul in the adversaries of a game, but you didn’t discuss something I often like to do as a DM. There are actually a lot of DMs that already breathe life into their enemies, but most of these higher end campaign masters forget to put in the dumb. Throwing some stupid creatures into your array of enemies is great fun for the players and the game as a whole. When I’m throwing kobolds at my guys I throw them as a horde, but I constantly give the players opportunity attacks against them as they do stupid things, or have a fight break out amidst kobolds over the same weapon or shield in the middle of the combat.

Challenge their intelligence but dare to be stupid!
You’ll be surprised how much fun it really is.

Groverfield

3rd & 3.5 enhancement bonuses of a ranged attack is the highest between the bow and arrow, then you add the special abilities of both. Then the dragon has windwall or another “ranged weapon attacks are now useless” spell. I think there is a way to throw magic missiles at will, but it requires the permanent loss of a 8th or 9th level spell slot, or a wizard could take reserve feats that give them spell-like abilites as long as they have an uncast spell of a certain SL and a certain subschool. Yeah, junk one of your highest level slots or keep it locked just so you can do something a turn. And even then, you won’t have the range to hit a dragon of an appropriate CR. There are some fucked up exploitative ways to down a dragon, like trueshot followed by twincast maximized ray of clumsiness, which will always drain 12 Dex, from a dragon, who will have 10 at most if you’re using any sourcebook dragon. Some splatbooks ruin D&D like that. Another tactic of a dragon against the archer or wizard is to flyby and grapple the ranged in each claw, and drop them from 250+ feet in the air, which will do the maximum fall damage of 50d6, the minimum of that damage is enough to require save-or-die from massive damage. The wizard might survive if he can pass the concentration skill check at a a huge negative for imminent death while trying to cast slowfall. If he prepared it.

Skolex

Case in point about the dragons: Smaug from The Hobbit.

Fatface

You’re almost as passionate about dragons being dangerous as you are about bees being dangerous. Better respect the bees.

Nyaore

While you were mentioning Kobolds with crossbows, all I could think about was good ol’e Deekin from the Neverwinter Nights 1 expansions and his crossbow. Damn I miss Deekin. I need to pop the disc back in again and play HoTU.

Adam DeYoung

Wow this site sucks now. Is this really the new direction? A ton of stories about D&D? If you were dying, and the only thing that could save you was a shit, and I had a few extra shits in my pocket, I still wouldn’t give a shit. How about a review or two from this “review” site. This went from my favorite site on the web to absolute crap in record time. Now if you excuse me, I’m gonna go watch The Thing review for the 2023rd time so I can remember when Spoony was serious about his profession.

http://twitter.com/Das_Bass Das_Bass

Then don’t watch it?
doresh

“New direction”? These are not the first Counter Monkeys he’s made Oo

And this is not a “review” site, this is Spoony’s site.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000270812903 Luke Liszewski

Dude, it’s his life. Don’t tell him what to fucking do. Are you his fucking mom? If you don’t like it, don’t watch it. End of story.
PeaTearGryfin

Oh Lord, thanks for resurrecting this old argument. Also, don’t you think you are being a little harsh on a guy for telling stories about something he likes?

http://www.facebook.com/people/Chris-Lauderdale/100000047693553 Chris Lauderdale

Recently my DM was a little mad at me because of…well a dragon.

We get an encounter with an adult white dragon (my character is level 10. She is a bard but a prestige class turns her into more of a sorcerer)

Needless to say, the white dragon was pretty badass. Even as a CR 10 creatures go, it was also customized and beefed up a bit, AND the dragon had 30-40 mercenaries he summoned, most of which were mooks but a few had real levels.

Long story short, level 10 character, sudden maximize spell feat, Lucent Lance (level 5 spell that is a ray of untyped damage at 1d6 per level).

60 damage in one hit on the second round.

Now the dragon had over 200 hit points, but over 50 points of damage is massive damage, and the dragon rolls a 1 on it’s fortitude save. Keeled over dead.

Long story short, my character 1 shot a dragon. The mercenaries failed their morale check and ran.

The DM had planned a thorough encounter with a balanced group. It was expected to last the rest of the game night. The encounter lasted less than 2 rounds. About 30 minutes of play total, most of which was setting up the board.

The DM was not happy.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Jon-Sukanen/100000048128540 Jon Sukanen

Just goes to show how bad of a rule massive damage is :/ always house rule that out in my games.
http://twitter.com/jesternario jesternario

I need to check, but I think dragons are IMMUNE to massive damage rules.
- http://www.facebook.com/people/Chris-Lauderdale/100000047693553 Chris Lauderdale
  
  Nope.
  
  Immunity to critical hits causes immunity to massive damage, I think, but dragons are living breathing beings and as such subject to massive damage since it is basically your system going into shock.
  
  It’s the reason why a shoulder wound could kill a man.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Ryan-Fiedler/100000718118395 Ryan Fiedler

Is it really so uncommon for a group’s spellcaster to carry Fly? Not in my experience. Wizard/Sorcs get that at Level 5. By the time you are facing adult dragons, the fact that they can fly should not be the biggest issue.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Jon-Sukanen/100000048128540 Jon Sukanen

This is so true!

Usually when i add dragons into my games they are well thought out and can assume human form, have political backing and/or respect from the people. now that i think about it, i´ve only used antagonist dragons three times during my DM career of 8 or so years. i don´t want a dragon to be just another encounter for the group to thwart.

SeanMcTiernan

Had a ball with my Pathfinder group, having a fight with a forest drake. They’re in the woods, when suddenly a Forest Drake breathes poison into the center of the group. The party immediately starts trying to get ready, but the Drake gets the Initiative on them. On it’s intiative, it picks out the party Witch, swoops in for a bite and grab, then burns for speed burst to get a second movement action. The hilarity begins when the archer-monk goes “I’ll wait for it to come back around” while still within short range of the Drake.

The look of utter shock on everyone’s faces was beautiful, that moment where they’re just in mute amazement at the deep degree of stupid engendered in a single sentence. So, the bard goes running off after the drake, casting to keep it from getting any further away for a couple rounds, but they only had two ranged people, the first of which had nat 1′d her perception check while checking out the cave that was the drake’s lair. The other was the previously mentioned archer.

Thank god the witch got desperate, cause the drake was about to get away with her when she unleashed a lightning bolt (Yes, she understood she was a good 40 ft up, and would take some damage from the lightning, as well as possible Attack of Opportunity). It wasn’t a great plan, but with the only other alternative being faith in the archer to remove her head from her anal cavity, it was all she had.

The Ranger/Rogue finally steps out front… and immediately opens fire with her full action on base reaction, finishing off the drake while one of the guys made a dive for the Witch. Sadly, the fall damage was too much after the bite and lightning.

Darby Bryan-Dye

I hope that dragon story wasn’t in 4th, because if your team didn’t have a good pull power or a prone power, they never should have gone against a flying solo mob. The same thing would apply to a beholder or a powerful magic user. But 4th edition really proves your point, dragons for all level of adventurers and quite often dragons are slain once per adventure. Most of my 3rd and 2nd edition dragon experiences involved negotiating with the dragons. Finding some reason for the dragon not to eat you.

Though I find my favorite spell for most monsters and most situations is ‘hideous laughter’.
2nd ed. Range is 60 yards (180 feat), its an AOE (1 or more creatures in 30 cubic feet of the origin point) the monster falls down (so you know, dragon falls out of the sky), they must spend the next round regaining their feet and they lose 2 points of strength for all remaining rounds of the spell (1 per caster level). (2nd edition red dragons breath weapon is 90′ in length)

3rd ed. Range is shorter here 25′+5′/2 levels (so level 10 its 50 feet), target is not only one creature but the effect is far more detrimental. It falls prone and remains prone for the duration of the spell, it can take no actions while laughing (it is not considered helpless however). Still 1 round/level *edit-3.5 technically (example from this book lists a CR21 ‘very old red dragon” having a breath weapon reaching 60 feet, though if i’m not mistaken that’s a bit out of this example party’s range…)

Pathfinder – Same as above only slightly less powerful as now the monster gets a saving throw every round to end the effect. (lets use the adult red dragon this time, since its supposed to be a challenge and all. At CR 14, its breath weapon is 50 feet this time. meaning that once its in range, so are you.)

My favorite thing about this spell though is that Bards get it. So here is this big dragon sweeping by over head, and suddenly the bard tells it a joke, tossing small tarts at it and waving his feather in the air. And the dragon bursts into fits of laughter, falls to the ground (taking 50 feet of falling damage in this example) and then ‘conan’ runs up and puts that buster sword into his skull.

Works great on Giants too, big bad storm giant comes over the hill. Suddenly falls down into fits of laughter as the rogue begins to cut his gullet open.

What I’m saying is, take this spell. It may seem silly, it may not be a fireball, or a lightning bolt, or burning hands. But It is useful in ANY encounter. Combat and even non-combat, after all what better way to stealth take down a guard than to send his buddy into a fit of laughter. He walks over to figure out whats going on, then you lot sneak by.

Congratulations, you just gave your DM the second greatest gift…laughter.

http://www.facebook.com/michael.swny Michael Sweeney

Let’s take your example spell with a 20 point buy 20th level bard who stacks charisma vs a CR18 very old red dragon. Assuming a 29 charisma, (+6 stat-item, 18 starting stat, and level points all go to CHA) your DC on a first level spell will be 20. This dragon will have a +19 will save, no way in hell will that spell hit it, oh he’ll laugh, but at you just before you get eaten
- Darby Bryan-Dye
  
  Never underestimate the power of a critical failure.
  - http://www.facebook.com/michael.swny Michael Sweeney
    
    So you should build a sub-optimal character on the hopes that your opponent will roll a Nat 1? That’s just fucking retarded
    - Darby Bryan-Dye
      
      the fact that you used “sub-optimal” in reference to a role playing game, means you have missed the point of the game entirely.
    - http://www.facebook.com/michael.swny Michael Sweeney
      
      Because my gaming group consists of players who like making strong builds on top of role-playing means we miss the point?

Ardion Prosili

Stay in the air and nuke them with your breath weapon? Sounds like Kalameet’s attitude from Dark Souls.

marabackman

In theory, how long can a dragon stay in the air without growing too tired? After how many rounds must it land or crash due to exhaustion?

MechaVelma

An excellent point. But in the descriptions of D&D it says specifically of silver dragons that they love to fly for hours at a time. So, I’m guessing they can stay up for the duration of a battle if need be.
- http://www.facebook.com/people/Chris-Lauderdale/100000047693553 Chris Lauderdale
  
  Bear in mind that dragons are lighter than they look. They have hollow bones like birds.
  
  That said, flying takes far less effort in one long direction than in circling around. A dragon would take a decent effort in circling, not to mention roaring and shooting his breath weapon. Flying is likely about as much exertion as a brisk walk. Circling is probably a bit more like a light jog, but dive bombing and breath weaponing would probably wear the dragon out after a while. After an hour or two, you could expect them to be fatigued. But since most battles last minutes at most, it would not be an issue.
  
  I have to agree with Spoony. Dragons are not meant to be mooks, or daily encounters. You face a dragon, it is a BOSS BATTLE.
  - marabackman
    
    I brought this up mainly because I started thinking about possible tactics for professional dragon hunters. Involving loads of mages and cannons, perhaps?
lightice

Air tends to be the natural element for dragons. They can fly insane distances in most continuities. Staying up in the air for a single fight shouldn’t be a big deal.
Dan Schuett

Well it would really depend on whether or not Dragons can ride thermals similar to birds of prey or gliders. Thermals are columns of warm air that birds of prey and gliders use to gain altitude. So long as there is enough lift in a thermal for the Dragon to regain any altitude lost doing a circle it could circle like a giant scaly vulture almost indefinitely.

MechaVelma

One minor point. Kobolds being of such weak physical strength probably wouldn’t be able to pull the draw string back on most crossboaws.But yeah, I like to think of kobolds as being like those mirror dopplegangers from Army of Darkness – evil, brash in groups but panicky chickenshits one on one.

Gregorian

Hello spoony! I am having a hard time trying to watch your movie’s lately, and…. that sucks because i just love you counter monkey episodes and your old game rewiues . I am from Sweden so that might be the problem i guess,,, but i hope you find a solution so all of your fans trough the globe can see you / mvh Gregorian

Daniel Thomas Stack

Something you might have some Kobolds try in the future. Have some enslaved to a wizard trained in the use of the Atlatl If they can figure out crossbows they can figure out atlatl. The benefit to them using it is that its a force and accuracy multiplier. It let regular ancient humans hunt Mammoths. So for a Kobold it would probably tripple accuracy and quadruple damage. But it would also surprise the heck out of whomever ran across them.

Hitokiri Akins

You know, even though I don’t run fantasy RPGs, this does help with the stuff I DO run; how would a white wolf mage fight vampires? How would a Sabbat Pack fight? How would werewolves, frickin’ death incarnate to vampires, fight? I get a LOT out of these Counter Monkey videos, Spoony, since the tips translate across game systems, with a little modification.

lightice

Have you tried RuneQuest? That game has dragons that you can never fight. That big lizard burning down villages? That’s not a dragon. That’s the *dream* of a dragon, manifest in the real world because dragons are so insanely powerful. That mountain range over there? *That’s* a dragon.

lightice

A guy up in a tree wouldn’t be able to use a longbow, and it wouldn’t be very easy for him to use a shortbow, either. A crossbow on the other hand? Oh yes, if he has the means to reload it up there.

Xioptocl

In a current pathfinder campaign I’m doing with three people, all of the monsters have been fairly intelligent so far, barring goblins with all of the intelligence of drying moss… At the adventure’s start a yet identified creature, a Freshwater Merrow(water ogre), sank the boat without ever going out of the water. All they know is ‘something strong’ punched holes in the bottom of the ship.

In addition, they had decided to track a newborn Myceloid from the exploded remains of a goblin. Deep in the swamp it was crossing, they were catching up, and it noticed. So, it waited for them to rest in the night, when it fogged over. It never directly attacked them, since they outnumbered the solo critter. Instead it waited and watched, driving the players batty since two of the people on guard saw it. It attacked once the lone watch lost track of him, by sneaking into the camp and used his neigh undetectable spore cloud, infecting one party member and a horse with a vile disease called Purple Pox and left without alerting anyone to it’s presence. The Myceloid never entered combat despite the fact that two of the three nightwatchmen saw it ‘deep in the fog watching the group’. This is a current event which has the potential to turn sour if the Pox isn’t cured. then the table will be turned with 3 myceloids and 2 characters… granting two more chances to make even more myceloids of the rest of the group.

SunOvaGun

Why I choose exotic weapon proficiency: Dragons, I found that the harpoon gun and some ropes attached to the harpoons have saved my ass in a fight with a red dragon critical hits on that are amazing for stopping that dragon in flight with the right magical enhancements on your weapon.

http://www.facebook.com/justin.wagman Justin Wagman

So what I am getting from this is that I need to be prepaired for everything ever all the time. Also that dragons equal TPK.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Chris-Lauderdale/100000047693553 Chris Lauderdale

By the way, clever players would actually figure out something to force the dragon down. Like a web spell cast on their wings? Or just shoot the wings. Or tie a rope around a rock, sneak a player into a tree with invisibility, and lasso the bastard. even better, make the LASSO invisible, and the dragon will have a hard time getting it off.

http://twitter.com/GoucheGizmo CBirds

always fun listening to these. wish i could attempt D&D nope no one to play it with and id probably suck the dons tits at it anyway :

http://www.facebook.com/people/Mitch-Sanders/1311553632 Mitch Sanders

You know, when i first started watching this i wanted to play this. But to be honest you as a DM would intimidate me especially after this video if you implimented half your ideas

http://twitter.com/Das_Bass Das_Bass

I wanna have a dm like this

IHeart28

Awesome counter monkey spoony! I agree wholeheartedly that dragons should be really be smart and badass creatures to fight against the players. I really can’t get enough of these counter monkey sessions. Keep em coming!

http://twitter.com/mrskippy69 Thomas Kelley

D&D 4e Essentials has the Ranger Hunter build, which gives 1st-level Rangers an at-will that can cause immobilization and can be used as a ranged basic. Full draw on a longbow is 100 feet. Dragons got a flight height of 60 feet. So that Ranger can not only shoot the dragon down in one hit, but they also cause a 60-foot dropping damage. At 1st level. And some people wonder why DMs bitch about 4e so much.

http://www.facebook.com/michael.swny Michael Sweeney

Wait in 4E dragons have a maximum altitude of 60 feet? That’s… “fucking stupid” barely covers it.

Dan Schuett

My first DM told me a story when I started of a game he’d run where the party thought it wise to take on a dragon. The dragon was content to hang out of range of the party and just circle while arrows fell well short of hitting it. This really got under the parties skin cause they weren’t used to being ignored. So they’re bellowing challenges at it, it’s not paying any attention, and finally the fighter blurts out, “Come down and face us you coward!” Now this Dragon was Ancient, it’s fucking massive, so the DM just went, “Ok.” Dragon swooped down and didn’t even bother with it’s breath weapon. It crushed two of the party under it’s feet and swallowed their wizard whole.
Lesson learned, if a Dragon is content to ignore you count your blessings and run like hell.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Chris-Bradshaw/100000539846890 Chris Bradshaw

The Tsavo man eaters are a good example of animals showing unusual cunning as well.

Steven Hawkings

Skirmishers date far back then the Romans to the Mesopotamians

Turcano

Dragons are the postermonster for everything that’s wrong with the Challenge Rating system. If played with any amount of intelligence and/or ruthlessness, dragons are easily 5 CR above their book listing.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Chris-Wiggill/100000296803972 Chris Wiggill

But aren’t Dragons also really arrogant and greedy, why would a dragon who can waste entire villages try to be careful, I wouldn’t take hours trying to kill an ant and I wouldn’t be careful about it either, and since dragons see others as ants I can’t see him caring whether he’s in the air or on the ground, he would just want it over with so he can get back to his cave.

http://twitter.com/scarvexx paul garratt

you said Kobolds are unintelligent but they have about average int in 3.5 and can have a plus 2 in 4e, plus their bonus to trap making and mining. I can’t understand why they are portrayed as tribal when they are reasonably intelligent and lawful, even if they can’t figure out modern things for themselves surely they could learn by watching humans.

they have the will to gather ores and build traps and they have the numbers to work so why are they not civilized? same goes for goblins and maybe a hundred other things.

thegodemperor

You know, of Video Games, I’d say Dragon’s Dogma and Dark Souls gets the “dragons are tough” bit right. More so than others.

Also, I liked the dragons in Record of Lodoss War (which, iirc, was based off the creator’s D&D session)

Gregorian

could you bring the dragon down whit some kind of enchanted nets maybe ??

http://twitter.com/XedAlpha XedAlpha

5 Lizard Men appear!
Player: We’re going to need a lot more hemp before we’re through…

http://www.facebook.com/domenico.tozzi Domenico Hairyfoot Tozzi

This is why, if you are gonna fight a dragon, make sure a spellcaster has the Anchor spell.
Lasts for one minute/level and creatures cannot leave the ground. It’s only a 3rd level spell.

http://twitter.com/incarnedine_v Dan Hibiki

Best strategy in earlier editions was getting at least three spell casters to start using cheap spells like Finger of Death. Lots of chances for the dragon to save but if you can get the spell off twice or three times for each character there’s a good chance the dragon will just topple over dead.

Lots of protection and preparation is a must of course.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Juha-Torvinen/100000007129372 Juha Torvinen

I was kinda wondering what types of spells (aside from fly which obviously gives you ability to do so) would enable forcing a dragon to come down. Is there spells which possibly double its weight so it cant just keep itself in the air or maybe increasing gravity on the spot where it currently flies, pulling it down. Maybe reverse gravity which messes up its flight pattern or confusion which possibly makes it to accidently slam to ground instead of rising altitude?
Im total noobie in dnd and such games but hold some interest in scenario settings and such, so kiiinda asking the stupid but since its stupid not to ask.. whatever.

http://twitter.com/ravenwoodwitch angela

You just get so so tired of dragons popping up. Leave it to Elder Scroll to turn fighting a dragon into glorifyed pest control.
It’s also really sad when Eragon is the movie that gets closest to how Dragon’s fight :?

draxo

Freakin’ agreed so much. I hate it when people run dragons like dumb beasts who make 2 claws and a bite each round. They have centuries to prepare and are super geniuses. Every time I hear some player bragging that their fighter beat a dragon in basic combat I groan and have to bite my tongue. I’ve talked to some people about it and it was always the same story. ‘We went into melee combat and I kept hitting it and getting crits and eventually won’. ANY proper dragon should be a freaking effort to beat. ANd heck, even if they ARE on the groun.. ever heard of GRAPPLE? +60 OR MORE to grapple checks? They can’t LOSE. And then they get free damage. No fighter can stand a chance against ANY dragon. That’s if they want to do it dangerously.. they can lift them into the air and drop them into a lake while keeping them pinned between both claws. Any DM that lets a dragon get beat in combat is a dunce.

This isn’t even going into the TRAPs, SPELLS and SPEED they have in the air which you went into.

Anyway, thanks for this video Spoony. Agreed so much.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1161393460 Nathan Jacob Caudill

a fighter who doesnt use bows?! outrageous! i play a fighter and i use my bow all the time when theres a range based situation! Sure you might say “Thats what the Ranger is for” but who cares? im not the typical meathead fighter that everyone else seems to play as, when it comes to being a fighter i focus mainly in speed and wear good flexible armor with good protection like Chainmail. In my opinion, ya wanna be a meathead sorta fighter, be a Berserker then, theyre high damage on a silver platter.

sorry if this makes anyone mad, just stating my opinion from my experience. i DM now and so far its going great :)

Patrick Coyle

I’ve long thought of dragons in D&D as the Prime Material equivalent of angels and demons – there’s just so much they can do that there’s no way it should ever come to a straight-up melee, unless the DM can’t be bothered to use their dozens of spells and abilities.

P.S. – What is it they say in Shadowrun? “Shoot straight, conserve your ammo, and never, ever, cut a deal with a dragon.” Because fighting the dragon isn’t even an option worth considering.

http://baroncognito.livejournal.com/ Baroncognito

As to Legolas getting a face full of fire? There’s a reason rangers get evasion and improved evasion. Also, they get good reflex saves.

http://www.facebook.com/Manofmanycoats Robert Cousineau

Then spell-like abilitys, smartass.

lastsigma

Apparently in your campaigns people don’t prep Protection from Energy, Flame Shield, Suppress Breath, or Wing Bind. Also, magic bows bestow their enhancement on their weapons. And apparently you think that you should throw ridiculous CRs at players. Dolt.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Pötkö-Latvala/100002159487074 Pötkö Latvala

How does the sleep or any other paralyzing spell work on D&D? One would think that would be one way to make a dragon drop from the sky unless it has resistances or immunities for stuff like that.

http://www.facebook.com/Manofmanycoats Robert Cousineau

Dragons have high ass saves against will and spells, on top of whatever elemental resistances the particular species may have.

balrogkernel

It depends which system you’re playing. We’re experienced with 3.5 and
4.0e. It’s been a while since we’ve played either because we’ve broken
them. The solution to dragons in 3.5 is gear that enables the players
to fly and spell casters with meta magic force orbs. You might be able
to restrict items that people get, but there is very little room for
argument when players make sorcerer characters that are specked out to
snipe enemies with maximal damage. In fact dragons were quite trivial
in our campaign, we’d wipe the floor with them even with the dragon
tactics you’ve mentioned. Our worst enemies were customized constructs, all well
within the rules of 3.5, that were much more deadly than any stock
monster manual creature. Custom anti-magic golems and golems that are
indomitable are king. Oh an psionics too in 3.5 and 4.0 are really,
really good. I forget that 4.0 at-will that charms but it’s ridiculous.
Also let’s not forget 3.5′s ego whip, that’s another great spell. If
people play D&D in an optimized way then players will always win. Hit points are a joke.
Spoony I would love it if you even saw our character sheets, I’m sure
you would throw up a little. Anyways, are you signed up for 5th
edition? We’re beta testing it and I’m wondering if you are doing that
too. Keep up the good work with D&D.

itseadie

Harpoons. Get a rope, get an anchor or a spear or grappling hook or some shit, climb on the fucker’s back. If it tries leaving the cave without teleporting, set some traps up on the way out – a net or some shit. Rope is the dragon’s worst enemy.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Jori-Jokinen/100000528236360 Jori Jokinen

This video made me think of mortality… And while my mind was in that place Oreo jumped on the screen.
I doubt Noah will personally read this but when Oreo is no longer with us I doubt he will ever truly be able to eat or even look at those cookies again : (
Sorry for being such a downer…

http://twitter.com/filbypott William Staples

One thing: In 3E/Pathfinder at least, magic bows, crossbows, and slings confer their bonuses on damage to their ammunition, so you don’t in fact need magic arrows.

http://twitter.com/qlmaX5 qlmaX5

Being a longtime D&D player and someone who has pored over the AD&D and 3.5 rulebooks for hours on end, no matter which class I play I make sure to take a ranged weapon or a good amount of ranged spells. In our Greyhawk campaign, I play a bard and carry a repeating crossbow. Whenever I play a wizard or Sorceror, I play ranged and support (AoE, cone, missile), my rogues all have bows. If a party is worth their salt they’ll have plenty of options for attacking at range.

Momatottotiasos

Yeah dragons were always a pain in the ass for me and my friends. They weren’t thrown out like any other enemy oh no! Of course our party changed over time with characters dying and shit but one time on the lower levels I dunno 5+ we met this small dragon in a deep cave complex or something and we imagined heck we can take that fucker down. Ends up with two of our characters swallowed whole and the rest running with barely any health left. One guy managed to cut himself out but the dragon was still too big of a challenge. We learned thing the hard way that day…

The only other time we fought a dragon we were able too beat it, at level 15+ or something the like and even then it was a fucking pain. This fucker was flying around, grabbing two of us and threw us to the ground. Our barbarian managed too survive the massive damage since well he’s a fucking half-orc barbarian and my own rouge managed too use tumbles and acrobatics to grab trees and dampen his fall which ended in broken ankles and shit. And then the barbarian, full of rage, makes an improvised huge spear out of a small tree and manages too fucking kill this dragon by throwing this tree. It was amazing! Almost all dead but we did it.

I don’t really remember details like the levels or what kind of dragons we met but they scared the shit out of us.

Segatron

Heh, at least even in Skyrim, the only way to really even the odds with the dragons is to slowly become more like them. But It’s definitely a good example of the dynamics of flying being a major factor. Even when I was maxing out skills, a dragon that keeps just out of range and hits me with breath (pretty much all of them) can wreck me. Especially on a mountaintop.

P.S. For those familiar with the game, I dawdled a long time before getting the dragonrend cry. I felt really, really stupid about putting that off when I saw it in effect.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Discordius-Erisianus/100000352364153 Discordius Erisianus

One of my RPG handbooks says red dragons don’t babysit their young.
There is no mum dragon around.

ya ru

This is funny. I never understood D&D even though I DM’ed a few games. Players do stupid, stupid things, so it’s your responsibility as DM to work around that so the players can finish the campaign. I really hate the system of people checking tables, and focusing on DPS, and other non-roleplay related stuff.

Example: I had a situation where my players were hell-bent on attacking a dragon. It had nothing to do with the campaign. Despite any coaxing on my end, they ended up in a group death scenario. One of the characters announced to the group, “I got this…and if i don’t…tell my wife and child I loved them 2d20+10.”

Invariably, his sacrifice resulted in moving to the next area of the campaign. Not because of dice rolls or stat tables! Just because it was necessary and funny. His somewhat heroic attempt resulted in an embarrassing and awful death. We then opened in a tavern at the next campaign point, which was conveniently the tavern of the dead players wife and son.

First we had to roll 2d20+10 to determine how much that character loved his wife and son. This was a riot, and the players had gambles on it. Everyone then argued that it wasn’t their responsibility to report the news because it was unclear who the dead character was relaying this responsibility to. The dead player explained he couldn’t intervene as he was obviously dead and couldn’t communicate. Then we made straws and the remaining living players drew and the short straw was the character to relay the news.

Roleplaying rules always suck and focus on combat mechanics rather than roleplay mechanics. The combat is the least interesting thing!

http://twitter.com/jesternario jesternario

Best tactic to use with archers. Have two archers at a high vantage point (don’t mention them until they attack or someone actively looks up before hand) that watch the fight. They don’t attack straight off; they watch from their perch for any spellcasters, holding their actions the entire fight until a caster casts a spell. When one starts, they interrupt and attack.

K B

Skyrim has the PC killing dragons from lvl 1 but that never bugged me. Dragon’s as an archetype are played-out and diluted by “dragonborn” races, “dragonshards”, dragon-this dragon-that. Dragons are so repeated as a fantasy monster and motif they’ve become a flavor I’m tired of tasting.

Baldur’s Gate had punishing dragons. I thought after talking to the dragon is was meant to be killed but its’ flapping attacks interrupted spells and stunned party members, making the party inneffective in the few rounds it took them to die. But the strongest thing I remember from BG was a Lich. There was one “ancient evil tome” that you can open. Out pops the Lich, stops time, casts insta-death spells, and maybe two party members get a round each before they’re dead.

Dragon’s being smart is a trait from DnD where they’re high-level spellcasters. In medieval folklore like St.Peter’s story and Grendel they’re just big land monsters to fight.

http://www.facebook.com/toni.stanicic.3 Toni Staničić

Great vid. I love everything you say in Counter Monkeys.

SeanMcTiernan

I think the thing I see DMs do most frequently in game that just irks me is not using creature abilities to their full extent. When you can still get fear from the party members from a wolf encounter at 4th level, then you are a GMing God.

It isn’t even a matter of boning the players. in the wolf scenario, I just had attack like wolves, not clay pigeons, so they would pack jump one, and flank in into the negs, especially aiming for weak or wounded opponents. Hey, look who scrawny, it’s the wizard!

In my Kingmaker campaign, I have literally killed more than a dozen PCs, without even throwing a dragon encounter. It doesn’t require high end monsters, just the will to learn them and use them as intended.

sprezzatura15

I’ve done a bit of DMing, but your videos are definitely showing me I’ve got a lot to learn yet! Thanks for the interesting video- usually as a DM I get more caught up in the storyline and the motivation for the fights- my typical combat scenario is usually very straightforward, because that part never interests me as much :P Besides, I always feel too sorry for my players to ever let things get really dire for them! The way you describe combat, though, it actually makes the combat from the DM’s perspective sound a lot more interesting than I’d thought of it as before- besides, it makes it more of a “battle of wits” and less “I’m an awful person that keeps dreaming up imaginary scenarios where I completely screw with my friends!” Definitely want to give it a try next time I DM!

Kevin Ward

sounds like the dragons in the dragonlance books.

http://www.facebook.com/Nightshift10000 Daniel Johnson

Spoony, Got a question for you. How do You make something this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOO_VfErEzw
Routine?

damion jackson

Pfft! Dragons are tough and all but there is always a way to win! Brains are not the sole province of wizards after all. Try this one, playing a fighter get yourself a spear with a lovely barbed head and a long chain or strong rope, say troll gut. Tie the chain to the end of the spear and when the Dragon comes make an aimed shot at a wing joint, near the shoulder. If the GM wants to make an issue of range or the chain draggin’ the spear down make sure you have a Potion of True Strike on hand and use that, +20 to hit will quickly end that argument and allow you to bring the shot home. Once youve got the spear sunk nice an’ deep in the dragons wing joint tie the other end of the rope around the nearest tree or boulder. That’ll put an end to the circle strafe tactic, at least for a little, while as the dragon wont be able to get more than a few feet off the ground and will be in massive pain just trying!
Dragon’s aren’t the only ones who dont fight fair…

http://www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Kalil/100001243226657 Tony Kalil

Yeah… I’m going to have to agree with everything except the hard facts of combat. Especially concerning 3rd Edition. Dragons as printed are simply not an auto-loss for a competent, intelligently played, and well-prepared party.

In fact, there is a particular dragon slayer build (Ranger 6/Fighter 4/Horizon Walker 6/Shadowdancer 4) that is capable of killing any dragon of any age printed in the Monster Manual by himself. In a matter of rounds. And he uses only material from Core 3.5 (Player’s Handbook, Dungeon Master’s Guide, Monster Manual). You talk about a 60 foot holding pattern for the breath weapon. This build with a longbow (using the Distance enchantment) can comfortably shoot from a distance of 400 feet with only a -2 penalty. In most games he wouldn’t even be on the same play mat as the dragon. You talked about the dragon having a home field advantage. The Horizon Walker specializing in hiding and navigating the dragon’s home terrain (in this case typically mountains, but also forests, plains, underground caves, or deserts). With a Ring of Invisibility the dragon can’t possibly spot him at a distance, even on a 20. Dragons are clumsy fliers. They can go really fast in a straight line but they can’t do sharp turns or maneuvers or even stop all that well.

A few other minor nitpicks:
-A wizard doing nothing but casting magic missile at the dragon is probably doing it wrong. Especially since magic missile is subject to spell resistance. He’s much better off with something that stops the dragon from flying around like Solid Fog (No save/No SR), Wall of Force (Reflex Save/No SR), or Fly on the unprepared melee’s if he wants to let them play, or if you want to go outside Core… killing the dragon outright with a Spectral Hand delivering a Maximized Shivering Touch (3d6 Dex damage/No save/No SR)
-A cleric that spends every combat round throwing out healing is also probably not helping, as the dragon, along with almost every other monster in D&D, puts out damage at a far higher rate than he could ever hope to heal it. He should have spent his time casting Resist Cold/Fire/Electricity/Whatever-breath-weapon-the-dragon-uses. Then he should Flame Strike. Repeatedly. Or Dispel Magic anything and everything the dragon does. It’s one dragon… and there are four or more party members
-A melee should have some means of flying under their own power. For exactly this reason. There are many magic items that are well within the wealth of level 10 characters that you can use. Or you can play a race that flies naturally (like a Raptoran).
-Magic bows bestow their enhancements on any ammunition they fire. The dragon slayer build above typically uses adamantine arrows beyond level 12 or so, as should any archer.

Again I need to point out that I very much agree that dragons should be terrifying and should be extremely difficult to fight. They should be the final encounter to a far-reaching campaign. But mechanically they simply aren’t, especially in 3E/3.5E. The smarter and more experienced your party is the more difficult it is for dragons to be a challenge, especially for an inexperienced DM.

A lot of homebrew is probably involved in making a dragon a challenge for such a party.

Goat Fucker

When I DM dragons, I try to have them all fight with different tactics. Dragons are tough motherfuckers and have been around centuries or millennia so it makes sense that they’d all be vastly different. Often they have feats like mobility or flyby attack so they can still be a melee threat while maintaining the advantage of flight by either flyby attacking or landing for a round, let the players close distance, full attack them, and leap back into the air.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Stephen-Martin/1596700226 Stephen Martin

Ooo, Spoony, here’s an idea if they don’t respect the Dragon and kill the adolescent. The dragon’s mother does what comes natural. She gets her family together and they track the party down laying waste to the countryside only to find them as they square off against the campaign’s big bad. Now they’ve gone from facing a lich to facing a group of ten red dragons out for revenge against the bastard who’s wearing a suit made from their kin. And they aren’t landing.

Zipper Dragon

Skyrim is kinda accurate. Wyverns are pretty much the weakest class of dragon, consittering they’re mortal, & most dragons are death incarnate.

Zipper Dragon

What is a cobalt?

Zipper Dragon

So I guess Big mike as con brovo wasn’t doing it right, consittering you 4 killed fucking Alduine

http://twitter.com/MarvGyver Bob Jones

This is incredibly ironic considering the game Spoony, Linkara, and those other guys played at that con

http://www.facebook.com/people/Benjamin-Colecliffe/100002323677756 Benjamin Colecliffe

If know you are going up against a dragon and you do not have Resist elements for A) the dragon’s breath weapon, B) any elements that the dragon is rumoured to have spells of, plus protection from energy for the same elements, plus several fly spells AND a couple of feather falls prepped for when the dragon dispels the fly spell on the fighter AND a wand of the best debuff you can afford AND a plan for when the dragon throws up an antimagic field AND an escape teleport/word of recall prepped if things turn against you AND protection from its fear aura AND preferably something to entangle its wings so it has to go to the ground… well, you deserve to get your ass handed to you. Dragons aren’t unbeatable in D&D, but if you haven’t planned for it then you should be toasty. Also, if the GM has done his job then by the time the PCs get to the dragon they should have been forced to waste assets on minions and traps. A dragon will have worn them down before they reach it, and if I were a dragon I’d know that my breath weapon is one element, and any monkeys that attacked me would probably have planned for that, so I’d have prepped various traps of all the elements in my lair and would be watching them to see what sticks, then go over to my hoard and grab wands that hit them with that element. If the dragon hasn’t already prioritized targets by the time the group gets to him then he’s probably not able to cast clairvoyance. Also, an invisibility potion will seriously screw with the archer, as will a smokestick or obscuring mist spell. You don’t need to see them to hit them with your breath weapon or wand of fireball, but the archer needs to see you to hit you. Also, save a disintegrate scroll for the wizard. Wizards are generally less of a threat when they’re a pile of dust.

http://www.facebook.com/dtilson1 Daniel Tilson

Magic bows provide their enchantments to the ammo.

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