The Secret College of Necromancy was a pretty good book.

Another good one, all I ask (and you did after i thought you wouldn’t) is to remember a large chunk of your audience have never, and likely will never play D&D so its nice when you explain what ravenloft is or what certain things are, or “why” this happens etc..

Those are honestly the most interesting parts after the stories themselves, but the stories are always better if we understand who/what where and why things are happening. If i re-told someone the Thieves World story without giving them the back story it wouldn’t be nearly as good.

I haven’t read the Dragonlance novels since I was a child, but I’m pretty sure the Mage doesn’t choose what robes he gets. I seem to recall there was debate among the high-up mages about giving Raistlinn the Red or Black robes after his test, and [i]based[/i] on his test.

Black robes make you look slimmer. What other reason do you need?!

Why are neutral wizards always red? What about grey XD ?!

I can think of at least two reasons and they both suck:

1. If you wanted to invoke fear into innocents and enemies…but even so if you wanted to seem threatening all you really have to do is put on some sinister looking plate Armour and take a big ass sword, even if you are a mage.

2.if you are a good mage, you could wear the black robes to infiltrate the evil ranks and take everybody out… just like what spoony said about white robes

Okay, this is gonna be a longer one.

First off, a major problem here is that Spoony is mentally still firmly in the AD&D period, before third edition came out. He does not seem to have mentally processed most things which happened afterwards very well, since in most of his CM’s, he refers back to AD&D rules ( or jumps straight ahead to fourth edition ). Hence his stance on the neutral alignment, which in AD&D was this quasi-insane “if I do good, I must do an equal amount of evil” stance. Which was changed to a much more reasonable “I don’t care much one way or the other” stance with third edition. Police officers would by the way, probably be strongly lawful first and only then fall down on other axis of the alignment chart ( good, neutral, evil ).

Now, the thing about characters being openly evil. Being openly of evil alignment does not make much sense if taken by real-world morals, that is very much true. However, Spoony does not take into account that, contrary to our own world, fantasy worlds have real, tangible evidence of gods existing. As such, if there is a god of evil and he promises real, tangible rewards which can happen to you in your lifetime, sane people in a fantasy world might have a completely other motivations and worldviews than what we can have here. If there is, say, Bane ( Forgotten Realm god of tyranny and strife ) and you are inclined to be an oppressive tyrant, you might get actually get rewarded by living your worst impulses out to the fullest.

Spoony is right that openly declaring yourself to be evil is a bad idea… unless you live in Zhentil Keep and worshipping Bane is the state religion, of course. But if you live in a good or neutral society, most evil guys don’t go to the marketplace and yell “Hear ye, hear ye! I declare myself to be EVIL! Muahahahahaaaa!”, but rather instead continue living their lives as before, just with another focus.

Going to Spoonys complaint about Star Wars, most Jedi can sense the dark side in other force users. That Palpatine was able to mask himself so effectively was one of the things which allowed him to get into the position of High Chancellor in the first place. Most Sith since the implementation of the Rule of Two kept themselves in hiding.

And lastly, Spoony is not up-to-date with the latest happenings in Dragonlance ( mind you, neither am I, but I still have a few more years of knowledge than Noah, it seems ). It wasn’t really that the gods abandoned Krynn, but instead that Takhisis stole the world away during the whole crisis with Chaos and hid it from the other gods. That’s described in the War of Souls trilogy.

As for the Sith, I always thought from what I’ve seen in the movies, and in the game, is that the Dark Side does make you a little unhinged is crazy which is why I thought that they were openly “evil”, because they just didn’t give a fuck. Also, the Sith rule a Lawful Evil empire so declaring yourself openly dark and evil will probably help you go up in ranks a lot faster, but even they justify their ways by saying they’re simply trying to keep peace and order or whatever.

Funny fact: Lord Soth was supposed to stop the 1st Cataclysm of Krynn. He has received a vision from Paladine to take to the Highpriest of Ishtar. He was riding to Ishtar from his castle, when he received a message that his beloved wife was cheating on him. He feared this and returned to his castle, murdered his wife and servants, and became this evil knight.

Technically, your actions during the test should be what determines your robe. I’ve rarely allowed players who go through the test to determine which order they join. If they want to switch robes after the fact, then they need to prove to me they’ve changed alignment.

In all honesty, most black robes don’t want to fraternize with the public. The idea of having people see their robes, shit themselves, and run – that gives them a smile to their face especially Fistandantilus (God, the Kingpriest trilogy was awesome). Raistlin (pronounced RAYST-lin) was on the edge between red and black, and he switched to join the evil dragonarmies and infiltrate. And it worked. But in order to do it, he really did need to change his world view. Hell, he abandoned his friends to die on a ship that was sinking in a storm. It’s just that he used his evil position to backstab Takhisis as step one in trying to eventually overthrow her and take her place.

Another issue is that all three orders of mages (white, red, and black) work together fairly well in the Tower, and mages are often hated regardless of their order. So in most places, white or black… it ain’t making a difference.

It also helps not to view neutrality as those in the middle balancing to two extremes. Neutrality in Dragonlance is the third point of triangle, not the focal point of a see-saw. Gilean (the head neutral God) has the symbol of a book, not scales.

Look at it this way: White is for the betterment of the world, often to the detriment of lesser goods and individual freedoms. Black is for control and domination of the world. Red is for free-will. The world is required to try to balance all three, not just two. And that makes things a bit more interesting because the whites, although simplistically called “good”…. really aren’t. Hell, I would argue that many of the “good” characters (like Par-Salian) were VERY VERY evil by real world standards.

Dragonlance got a lot of stuff cleaned up in regards to its continuity when MWP released its 3.5 materials (often referred to by the fan-base as the “Golden Age of Dragonlance”), and many of the issues have been ironed out or at least improved from the old AD&D over-simplicity in the setting. It also takes the good material from 5th Age and brings the stuff lost from the 4th Age and brings it all together.

And good God… it was glorious.

Hell, I became enough of a fan I assisted in creating a fan-made setting on one of Krynn’s other continents (Adlatum), and it was some of the most fun I’ve had with D&D. It’s a shame WotC let their license to MWP run out, because it killed one of the best line of RPG products I’ve seen (even more than Planescape, even more than Pathfinder).

Long live the Lance.

Asking why anyone would wear a black robe is kind of like asking why Fallout lets you get a slaver tattoo across your neck that everyone will see wherever you go. Even if we ignore “the god of evil won’t give you power otherwise,” you can see it as a statement: “You do NOT want to mess with me!” I don’t know how the book defines it, but you can still fudge these wizards as being people who aren’t ashamed of being evil.

There’s also a major flaw in your “nobody considers himself evil” argument, o Spoony One, in that while that’s true on ideological matters, it’s not always true on matters of practicality. Yes, Hans Gruber just wants money, but we can’t deny that he knows taking it is “wrong.” Of course he does, but the man doesn’t care. He wants the money and if he has to shoot Mr. Takagi in the head for no real reason in the process of doing it, then he’ll do that. Sure the man isn’t doing it BECAUSE it’s evil, but he’s doing it WHILE KNOWING it’s evil.

To me, Black Robe mages are assholes who were going to go around burning villages and killing other mages anyway, and the black robes just give them an excuse to do it. Not only that, but it’s a status symbol that this is someone that you don’t talk back to, or he will murder your ass. It’s what someone who has no ethics, morality or ideology would do, because that’s someone only driven by greed. And greedy people are never ashamed of showing it, if they have the power to take what they want.

So… He gave such a little fuck that the realm sundered and the gods got pissed?
When people said “I didnt give a single fuck”
This guy, he just gave such a little fuck that it’s impossible to give less fuck than that.

Isn’t it because there are 3 different gods gods of magic white/red/black. There only concern is magic and mostly work together. Has something to do with the 3 moons the white the red and the hidden one that black mages use.

I’ve only read the first couple of trilogies in the Dragonlance saga and that was probably 25 years ago, so my memory of it is extraordinarily vague by now. All I can say is that it would have made more sense if the robes were magical in such a way that they knew the intentions and desires of the person wearing them and changed their own color based on that. Even then, however, the question arises as to why you’d still wear them; for example, you could just walk into your local tailor shop and request a white robe be made (they may even have dozens of them in different sizes already made because the request would be so popular) and just swap the intelligent robe with the plain one as you’re leaving the wizard’s tower.

I played a short Dragonlance campaign for a few weeks in high school, where our DM treated the black robes as being committed not to evil, but to a certain kind of pragmatic self-interest, along with the idea that conflict breeds growth and strength. You could largely count on them to act in whatever way would most benefit themselves, including being perfectly reasonable much of the time. They’d only stir up trouble if they had something to gain from it (and if you weren’t willing to give them what they wanted – the black robes were a good intimidation tool in this regard).

I thought the comparison made between them and the Sith was pretty interesting, considering this is much how the Sith are portrayed in the later Knights of the Old Republic series, which seemed like they were trying to answer the same question: why would somebody join an organization that marks them as a card-carrying asshole?

(Yes, maybe the DM was violating canon – but he was the DM, canon is whatever he says it is, and his version made much more sense to all of us.)

With the sith, at least as far as I see it, a good amount of them are newbies, driven by emotions, like Anakin at the end, doesn’t think he’s evil but is hogging all the power that he can. The genius ones, like Palpatine and his master Plagueis (who didn’t even show himself in public) kept behind the scenes, and maintained a facade of being normal. Darth Maul didn’t tattoo his face because he was sith, that was a Zabrak custom. Revan took on the mask from a dead Mandalorian back when he was still a jedi and swore he would wear it until they were defeated, and after that, he had no real reason to maintain an appearance of a jedi, as he was the head of an invasion fleet. Kreia, while talking like Satan, the lord of lies, did not announce being evil. Sion and Nihilus are kind of beyond the point of even attempting… although at their time, there were almost no jedi so what would it get them even if they could.

Bear with me, I know nothing about the flavor of Dragonlance so this is all from a logical perspective by what you said in video.

Out of story context you would pick black for the power bonus.

In context your god may require you to reflect your nature as to better worship, be recognized, the whole army of Nazis is more intimidating than an army of guys dressed as bunnies thing.

Could also be that a player just wants to run around as a dick for laughs, setting churches on fire and punting babies off of buildings because it would be a fun challenge to do that in public and draw a crowd of do-gooders to kill in the aftermath of your comical evil.

I can give you the reason as to why a person would chose to beyond the metaphysics of “stat bonuses”, beyond the gods needing supplication and beyond stupid but I don’t think you’ll like it.

Let’s say we have someone with a chemical imbalance, doesn’t think straight or process properly. They chose black because they do bad things, are bad and just outright don’t understand why this is inappropriate. A biological and environmental process that creates someone who just is “evil”. This could be just how you want to roll your character.

Another argument could be for counter-culture. Wear black, be crazy, do what you want and everyone accepts it because you’re evil. If the guy in white robes did that, we would probably hate him and attack him for doing bad things while wearing a representation of good. If the guy in black robes does it, we expected it to begin with.

Sure, the element of surprise is gone but so is the cultural and moral pressure to do nice things, help out and be useful. Everyone expects the guy in white to run into a burning building and save orphans but no one expects the guy in black to do it. I know this sounds bad but when was the last time you saw a guy with Nazi tattoos and thought, “I bet he would risk his life to save someone he didn’t know.” If you remove expectation, you remove pressure to achieve expectation.

Ah with Raven mask here the reason why he was wearing it “Revan dons the Mandalorian mask for the first time and vows to avenge the victims of Cathar.” http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100312065526/starwars/images/6/6d/RevanIsBorn-KotOR42.jpg

I always pronounced it as Ray-st- lynn. They way you said it is rice-t-lynn. I guess it is up to choice, but I have heard it pronounced my way in the cartoon and in other WoTC settings. Please cut your greasy hair. You are a god of all this stuff! You shouldn’t look like a dirty homeless person.

I also quit the Star Wars EU around the time of New Jedi Order. IMHO, the “Golden Age” of Star Wars print stories are stories set in the time frame between when Empire Strikes Back is going on, to about 15 years after the Battle of Endor. Well, OK, some of the stories set 1000 or more years before A New Hope are kinda cool too, especially Tales of the Jedi and Knights of the Old Republic, but generally I go for the other era I mentioned, which I think is “officially” referred to as The New Republic Era.

I always thought of robe colors more of a type of magic/temperament kinda thing… much like final fantasy mages, now that I think about it. White robes are given to those who help others and mostly focus on healing magic. Red robes are given to those who the power of magic but are not willing to go to the extents the black mages tend to. Takhisis is basically only tolerated by black mages because their inclinations tend to mix them up with her worshipers and it smooths out the knicks there would otherwise be.

5th age was pretty shit I must say, but a lot of novel before Chronicles were great. The Lost Chronicles are a must read. Other great series include Anvil of Time, Ergoth and Kingpriest.

As I recall the gods left not because they were fed up but because they had to to keep Chaos from destroying the world despite doing so would hurt him.

Apparently Lord Soth wasn’t the only successful escapee from Ravenloft; Vecna pulled it off too. And he didn’t really give a shit either.

hmm, all i can think of (having read a grand total of half a dragon lance book) is that the test would mark you as one or the other in some way. I’m with Spoony on openly evil thing, it almost always doesn’t make sense. The only time it does is when it is as a contrast to good, say if good is a bunch of ultra conservative nut jobs, or the character is Richard from LFG.

Incidentally if anyone is interested in in a series of books that does the Light, Neutral and Dark thing right, or just like Russians i’d recommend The World of the Watches series by Sergei Lukyanenko. Although to be fair the ‘black robes’ in that have more to do with how self interested they are then how objectively evil

I once questioned American’s fascination of Ninjas because it was never that popular in Japan. Then I saw how they depict Ninjas in movies and games, I think I know why. They are basically an acrobatic badass who wield Katana in their mind, but they are all wrong. Their major tactics were disguising themselves and deceiving guards to infiltrate a place and assassinate someone. They wore black suit only during night. They use ninja-toh not Katana.

The closest thing to Ninja is probably the agent 47 from Hitman games.

Here’s how it *could* work:

-You are part of an evil society with a dress code. The robes grant you privileges, and other black robes can’t hurt you or else the establishment kills them.

-It’s the price one must pay for being allowed to use magic. The gods want you to have some weakness or a sense of fair play.

-The gods like chess, and the robes help show where all their pawns are at a glance.

I haven’t read the novels, obviously. But you can stretch your imagination a bit and find a few answers.

As far as I know, when Sith Lords use force, jedis can sense them. In this case no matter what outfit you use, they still going to know you’re a bad guy.

Oh boy…. first on neutrality. It’s not about keeping the balance. It’s all about abstaining from

choosing a side… you are neither good or evil, but you are also not an asshole… you know there is no

such thing as pure good orpue evil, and there is always some shade of grey… and not choosing to side

with one power is usually the smarter choice… because you never know who might be on the other side and

you do not know all the wisdom behind the other sides actions.
This is really touched upon in the Witcher saga by Andrzej Sapkowski. The Witcher is neutral. He is also

dedicated to eradicating pure evil from the world and protecting the good side… conflict? Not at all…

you see… monsters are evil, they prey on the vulnerable – a monster will kill anyone… wheter it’s a

child, a soldier or a shady crook – they all deserve not to die horribly being ripped appart by some

monster – and Witcher will protect anyone whether it’s women and children or a King know for being an

asshole to his subjects… he does not judge people on their character and choose… you are good and I

will save you from the monster – and you are evil and I will not – he is neutral: you pay me, I will work

from you.
The books all evolve around a full out war and his struggle not to take part in it – he does not have

stakes in this war, he only want’s for his loved ones to be safe and does not care who will be the

victor… and also, one side is the attacker and the other side is struggling to survive… but… it’s

not all this black and white… both sides have their own reasons for this war, and there are many more

sides of the conflict than just black army and white army – what about other races, and normal people on

both sides? Are they evil or good? They are both, and the basic of neutrality is not aiding either side,

and just sticking to what you do best – killing monsters… and mind you that not all monsters are pure

evil… sometimes the monsters need as much protection as the women and children… and mindless killing

is not an option. To stay neutral is to stay on your own path, decide for your own what is good and what

is evil and being able not to be overly good or evil because you cannot be sure that you are doing the

good work… and also… you can still be as good or as evil as you want/ You can save a woman from being

rape and not loose your neutrality status, and you can bargain with people in mortal danger – you can

help them, but they have to pay the price… which sounds evil, but really isn’t.

The same goes for the red robes in dragonlance… they choose to focus on studying magic and they do not

care for using the magic for the good of the people – that’s what clerics are for, and also they do not

care about power… magic has a lot fo offer.

Here is another example: how about the recent books by Trudi Canavan – ther is an order of magic whit

three colors of robes: green, purple and red. Green robes focus on healing magic, the red robes focus on

war magic, and purple are mostly scientists – they deal with every possible application of magic, from

developing new kinds of glue to meteorology and weather control. There is no good or evil side… they

just dedicate themselves to different aspects of magic. Every one of them knows how to heal people, fight

and is a scholar, but the specialization is differen… if you want to be good at healing, you have to

dedicate yourself to studying this type of magic. If you want to be the good protector – you have to

study the war magic, tacticts and know how to kill people with magic – but you are not evil… this is

your path you chose. Other mages are more like scholars… they study magic and are the most diverse

bunch – some of them are powerfull mages, some are great sages and some are just teachers and simple

people, like libriarians, historians and scientists – they focus on all the other aspects of magic, not

just war or healing. This purple robe is the closest kind to red robes
Also, in these books… the war magic is usually the most evil and corrupting… but it is actually the

healing magic which is the most deadly… because even the powerfull mage can be killed with the use of

healing magic and cannot do anything about it…

So, back to dragonlance – I always thought the robes were much more connected to the 3 moons of Krynn..

.because they get their powers from the moons and the robes represent the different colours of the

moons… white, red and black – because the black moon is almost invisible to others besides the black

robe mages…
Of course there is some evil aspect to the magic, but it is connected stritcly to the field of magic and

philosophy behind it. Again I see it as a choice which is suitable for every mage. Some see it that magic should be used for the good of mankind… wether it’s by curing the sick or using magic to build bridges etc. those people choose the white robes and are proud of it. Others believe that magic is vast and unknown and unpredictable – they choose to dedicate their lives to study magic itself, from the history to the future of magic in this world. Those people do not care about curing warts and do not care for power… they just want to study it. The red robed mages have more spells and choose to stay away from people all the way… focusing on pure magic. And as always, there are people who view magic as a tool for gaining power… men mostly, they are predisposed for lust for power and they will whatever they need to achieve it. Their moon gives them the most power so they choose the black robes. They are also proud of them. They are not just mere servants to the people and they are nat just scholars and teachers. They have much more burden on their shoulders in the responsibility to ensure that magic is under control – their control.

What I find interesting (and I might be wrong on this, I never read any gaming books on dragonlacne – all what I know comes from books and conversations with other people) is that they are not enemies – all the mages are not rivals, nor mortal enemies and do not fight each other – on the council, there are white, red and black mages working together. They may disagree or search to gain more power over other factions. But it’s not like the black mages are rogues or rebels or outlaws. No, they are legal, practicioners and are accepted… hell… the tower of black mages is inside of one of the biggest cities. Also, the “dark arts” which in systems like Warhammer and Forgotten Reals are always outlawed. Necromancy, demonology – means those people are criminals and should be hunted down and put to death… painfully if at all possible. In Krynn.. black mages are operating in full view and no one tries to knock the doors down and hang’em high… so… why hide it? They are after power, and healing pimples and breaking rocks with spells does not give power – only the darkest and most dangerous arts bring power to the hungry… so they are choosing black robes and do not have to hide in the severws or some dark temples or castles in the middle of the nowhere… they have a great big tower right next to the main marketplace and the palace… why bother with hiding?

So in short. Neutral mages are not dividers – they are on the side of each conflict, taking no actions. Every color of the robe is a philosophy as much as a free choice and does not yield so much negative consequences as in the other realms.

There are some cases in stories where somebody does think of themselves as evil, but they consider their situation to be tragic. Like they think of themselves as exacting justice from the world with the knowledge that their acts are evil. Or they are both evil for some reason and hate themselves for it, perhaps their self-hate or acts of evil themselves are a form of self punishment. Or they have goals in the world which make them out to be evil(if only in their own mind) but they have a greater need which causes them to need to do that, like revenge. But only insane people, or kids, or people playing chaotic stupid are just like, “I’m evil because evil is awesome.”(that is, actual evil, not funny evil)

I’d say there’s a variety of possibilities.

Perhaps it’s a matter of pride. Maybe you see your actions as good, but then you are labelled as evil by the cloak system and you just think “Well, fine. If I am to be known as evil for my deeds, I shall wear these robes with pride. if I am to be considered evil in your eyes, then I am evil, for I shall not deviate from the path that I have taken in life.”

Or, in the case of self-aware evil, perhaps it’s a part of the theatrics of it all, no?

Though, I do agree, Evil doesn’t consider itself evil, but this is DnD where the alignment system has to be as physical as possible. If alignment was based on perceptions, Paladins and other alignment restricted classes wouldn’t work.

Though, even considering this, a character’s solid alignment can’t truly be the defining feature in their role in the story, as you explained through one campaign where a Paladin was the bad guy due to his extremist views.

From what I understand, the robes are primarily based on the god of magic a mage chooses to worship.

There are three gods of magic: Solinari, Lunitari, and Nuitari. Each of these gods represents one of the three moons of Krynn (the white moon, the red moon, and the dark moon respectively). Each god founded their own school of magic, each with its own benefits and drawbacks. Nuitari’s black magic, for example, grants its practitioner incredible power, but it can also corrupt the person.

So the choice isn’t so much about declaring one’s self as good, neutral, or evil, but is rather about what type of magic they want to specialize in. Mages in Krynn are also affected by the phases of the moon that represents the god of magic they serve. A white robe, for example, will become more powerful when the moon Solinari is dominant.

There is also an event called the Night of the Eye, when all three moons align in Krynn’s sky. When together they appear as a giant eyeball, Solinari is the white sphere, Lunitari is the red iris, and Nuitari is the black pupil. It is also the only time when normal people can actually see Nuitari; normally the black moon is visible only to black robed mages. During the Night of the Eye, magic from all three schools is at its absolute peek.

Granted I haven’t read the Dragonlance books in years, but I seem to recall that, even in the books, people primarily based their decision on the school of magic each robe specializes in. No one ever said “I’m a black robe because I’m evil,” but rather “I chose Nuitari because he could give me the power I needed.”

Lord Soth’s deal was that he could have prevented the cataclysm, but he didn’t, which was the entire reason he was cursed into becoming a Death Knight.

Basically, the man thought with his penis. He became smitten by an elf maid, so he had his wife murdered so he could marry the elf, who then bore Soth’s child. He was found out and disgraced, stripped of his knighthood, and arrested. He escaped and holed up in his keep, which was besieged by the Knights of Solamnia.

He was told about the coming cataclysm by the gods and tasked with stopping the Kingpriest of Ishtar before he invoked the divine wrath that would devastate Krynn. While Soth rode out to save the world, he was tricked into believing that his wife was cheating on him. So he turned around and rode back in a jealous rage, leaving the world to its fate. While his wife was dying, she pleaded with Soth to at least save their child. Soth didn’t listen and let them both die.

The wailing spirits reciting his failures was also his torment while he was on Krynn. It’s notable that there was only ONE occasion when the spirits did not wail. When Kitiara Uth Matar fought her way into his keep, facing impossible odds to reach Soth, she collapsed from exhaustion. Soth fell instantly in love with her, and for the first time ever, the spirits fell silent. Soth forbade them to utter a sound so that they would not disturb her rest.

Why would you ever want to wear Black Robes, and how does Robe selection work? This requires a too long; didn’t read explanation:

The problem with the Dragonlance setting is the massive amount of inconsistencies in every aspect of the world that have built up over the years as a result of shifting authors and the primary authors taking a decade-long hiatus before returning to the world with no clear memory of it.

In 2nd edition Dragonlance and in the primary novels, the magic of wizards is arcane in nature, meaning anybody could learn it. That was why there were wizards running around Ansalon after the Cataclysm even though clerics had ceased to exist. Somewhere along the way though (i’m going to say it started with the novel Soulforge) it became a lot more clerical in that the Gods of the moons were directly granting the magic and the talent to use it. The Conclave started to get a lot more preachy around this time as well…

Raistlin himself went from being a man who earned his powers through hard work and dedication in the primary novels, to a guy who had absolutely no magical talent and was granted his gift directly by the Gods of Magic in the Soulforge, to some smuck who never would have amounted to anything as a wizard if he had not been partially-possessed by Fistandantilus in Dragons of The Hourglass Mage. By the same token, the Conclave itself went from an over-arching institution dedicated to the preservation and responsible use of magic to a quasi-religious order that could not function without the Gods of magic changing their diapers.

That is why so many people are giving passionate yet totally different explanations of the setting. It is completely dependent on which books you read.

Primary novels (2nd ed): You chose the color of your Robe, but if you cease to behave according to your alignment you lose the “enhancement” of your moon and become a regular (renegade) wizard until you are accepted by another Order and connect to its moon. You take a level penalty but no longer suffer any restrictions on what spells you can cast…making you much more powerful but also hunted by the Conclave.

Later pre-5th age novels (3rd ed): You wear the color robes of your sponsor/teacher until you take the Test. Your conduct during the test then determines the color of your robe and which order you join. You can cast any first or second level spells without alignment restriction, but third and up is limited to the schools “approved” by your order. The novels almost never remember this rule though it appears in the game manuals and in the goldbox games. This means that in some stories, Raistlin is wearing Red Robes prior to his Test, and in others, he is wearing White.

5th age novels (3-3.5 ed): The Gods of magic go away and take arcane magic with them. The Conclave falls apart. Later, the Conclave returns after the retcon and it is never explained how anything works. The Test itself is reduced largely to a formality with no serious impact what so ever as the wizards are desperate to rebuild their ranks. The idea that wizards can only use certain schools is abandoned in favor of certain Orders getting specialization bonuses with certain schools.

Prequel Novels (3.5 ed): You just go your local clothier and have your robes dyed a new color. Seriously. Raistlin does it at the start of the book Hourglass Mage. There is a brief mention about how he was a bad boy for not getting permission to do this ahead of time, but he suffers no notable penalty or sanction.

So why would you wear black robes? Sometimes the God who grants you your abilities requires it. Sometimes the Conclave will kill you if you don’t. Sometimes it has to do with who you are hanging with…such as in Hourglass Mage. Sometimes you can wear the wrong color robe and fake people out and sometimes thats not cool. Basically, it all depends on the author. And that, fundamentally, is why the setting sucks now.

Healing potions don’t exist on Krynn. (Only healing comes from the gods.) Guess the gods figured the way around Spoony’s scenario.

You do not choose the color of your robes – you are given a color based on how have you shown yourself during the test.
Also, magic doesn’t come from the main gods (Paladine, etc.) it comes from the moon gods: Solinari, Lunitari, Nuitari.

If my memory is right, it’s not something that anyone actually chooses. The Robes that you wear are supposed to be made specifically to help you with your magic, and they actually change colors themselves, based on your beliefs and morality. If you’re wearing the right kind of robes for magic casting, it doesn’t matter WHAT color you put on in the morning, if you’re a black robe…you’ll be IN a black robe by the time you walk out of your house.

EDIT: In fact, thinking back, that thought is reflected in Raistlin’s own change. When he goes into the trial that makes the change, he goes in with red robes. He doesn’t change his robes AT ANY POINT during the trial, and the book specifically says that when he comes out of this event that all of his companions comment about how his formerly red robes are now black, and what all that’s supposed to mean if he expects to keep roaming around with a bunch of dedicated good guys.

Raistlin put on the black robes to convince Takhisis he was on her side and so he could more easily study Fistandantlius (the dark wizard possessing him). Then he betrayed her, preventing her from leaving the abyss.

Hey, to be fair, in SWTOR being a Sith isn’t necessarily an automatically bad thing. Playing a Light Side sith is more about being and incredibly passionate and focused being. You could play a Light-sided Sith and actually have reasons to do good thing.
Granted, the best you could ever be is a Darwinist of sorts, survival of the fittest but you don’t need to actively harm others to be the most fit. Chaotic Neutral at best, but still not evil.

Spoony bastardized the story of Raistlin (as he acknowledged). Raistlin most certainly chose the Black Robes (and to be evil) consciously, because Takhisis was the only god who would give him the key to unlock the spellbooks of Fistandantilus (the wizard-lich who had merged with him during his test). Raistlin understood that to become a god, he would have to do evil things (such as murdering the gnome who invented the time traveling device).

Merging with Fisty gave Raistlin certain powers while ruining his health, but it didn’t change his personality.

You’re right, Spoony. Catholics don’t have superpowers. However, certain holy men and women attained such a degree of faith and purity that they were marked in their lives with special gifts. They had stigmata, healed the sick, spoke to animals, could appear in more than one location at the same time. Their bodies did not decay after death. They are the saints. There are over 10,000 recorded saints, but the true number is known only to God. That’s why we have All Saints Day, to commemorate all the unknown saints who walk among us, spreading joy and peace wherever they go, offering prayer and sacrifice constantly to the Most High.

I also used to be huge into Dragonlance, so let me see if I can remember all this.

On alignments:
In Dragonlance, mages do not worship any gods. Not the gods of Good and Evil, not even the gods of magic. Mages worship the concept of magic itself, and their sole goal as an organization is the development of magic on Krynn. To that end, the orders are developed. Black robes are devoted to the idea that magic is for amassing individual power. They don’t see themselves as evil, but they are ambitious and don’t see a point to magic if it doesn’t help their ambitions, and they’ll do anything in their power to amass more power. White robes, as you might imagine, believe that the role of magic is to help society and benefit others. They work for the common good. Red mages, however, aren’t idealogues. They’re pragmatists who see magic as a tool. They’re not selfless enough to devote themselves to others like the white robes, but they’re not so selfish that they’ll cross the lines that a black robe will. The thing is, it’s very hard for a red robe to maintain that middle ground, and they often become black robes when their hunger for power grows to large to control. They sometimes also become white robes if they find a cause they believe in strongly enough. Incidentally, because they’re not openly devoted to a specific set of ideals, nobody really trusts red robes.

In terms of choosing your order, as a couple other people mentioned, you don’t. The gods of magic choose for you, and mark you according to the god whose sphere of influence you fall under. This is partially what the test is for; your real character shakes out in it. You can change alignments, and as you do so, your robes change color automatically of their own accord. This happened to Raistlin when he went to the dark side. And before you ask, wizards have to wear wizard robes. It’s a law set down by the orders of high sorcery, just like not being able to carry a weapon bigger than a knife. People want to know when they’re dealing with wizards, and wizards want to avoid being killed on sight by angry mobs.

Three words: spell of detect __________.Detect good gets the white robes, evil the black, and the red to the rest of the bunch.

Poor DragonLance. It was a fun ride while it lasted! I think the downfall began when they started introducing ‘The Next Generation’ (a concept that has really only worked once in history!). By having the children of the original heroes, the Companions, become the next wave of heroes was just way too contrived to begin with. It’s been a long time since I’ve read Dragons of Summer Flame, but I remember having the impression that Palin Majere was a hollow waste of a character who, of course, was completely useless up until thrown in the face of Chaos, the High God… And suddenly he was all-powerful.

The Fifth Age series had potential to change the face of magic on Krynn for the better, I think. Between the hunt for relics and the evolving ability to tap into Krynn’s naturally occuring mana, it could have made for an interesting setting. Jean Rabe made short work of any interest most people had in the series, however. Her arrogance in changing the face of the planet and screwing with major characters (that no matter who holds the copyright on, they will still always be the intellectual right of Weis, Hickman, Grubb, Williams, and all the rest), combined with her effing awful writing style, spun the franchise into oblivion. I always had the overwhelming sense that she paid no homage to the existing material, other than just using it as a foundation to drop her double-wide trailer on. I managed several writing and discussion clubs for the DragonLance franchise back then, and we came up with a phrase to describe her characters. We called them God Characters, because they were all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful, and could generally never fail at any task. There is only one other popular author that I would make this same accusation of – yet I enjoy his work more – R.A. Salvatore. Be that as it may, it is barely a comparison, as Salvatore actually employs some skill with his craft, and Rabe… Not so much.

TSR / WOTC were hit hard in the following years. Funny thing about Lord Soth – he was transported to the Ravenloft setting during the Reign of the Rabe, and at some point during an interview, Tracy Hickman was asked about Lord Soth. If memory serves, Lord Soth was a character of his, and his comment was something to the effect of, “As far as I know, Lord Soth has never left the land of Krynn,” though he was, of course, fully aware of the two-book Ravenloft series. In any case, WOTC damn near had to beg for Weis and Hickman to return and clean up the mess, as another post below mentioned. They should have just left it alone and continued working on their other franchises.

What followed was a confusing and disappointing mess of a story arc called “The War of Souls” which followed their Joan of Arc character, Mina, around for some time. The supporting cast was as useless as Palin Majere and really didn’t add much to the story. I was glad the authors had returned, but this series was particularly disappointing for me… In their first trilogy, the Companions basically waged a war against Takhisis, the Dark Queen of the evil gods. In theie second trilogy, they focused on the twins, Raistlin and Caramon Majere, and their struggle against… Takhisis… and then in the War of Souls, their third trilogy, the mysterious ‘One God’ that was talking to Mina of Arc was… Takhisis. Really!? There were 21 freaking gods to play around with, and you go with the same one as the last two series? Come on, seriously.

But besides all that, the War of Souls was unsatisfactory, and was clearly just a story arc to return the DragonLance saga to its foundations. Or so I thought. After taking a several-year hiatus from the series, I jumped back in and read Margaret Weis’s new Dark Disciples trilogy, which followed Mina after the War of Souls… and found it wasn’t all that bad, really. It did answer some major burning questions and felt like original, thought-out material. Definitely takes on a way different vein than previous DragonLance stories, and is worth a look.

As for wearing the black robes? When we were introduced to DragonLance, it was a fact that, no matter what color your robes were, you were either feared or reviled. The mages had grown to mistrust all the people of Krynn because they were hunted during the last days before the great Cataclysm. The Kingpriest of Istar outlawed all magic (excluding clerical magic, of course) and the mages holed up inside the Towers of High Sorcery. There was still a residual stigma placed on them from all that mess. But, in the times before the Cataclysm and following the War of the Lance, mages were commonplace and more respected. As Spoony mentions, no matter the color of your robes, your intentions are likely for the spirit of what they think is right. The difference in colors merely represents a difference in philosophies – different viewpoints of the world and of their roles in it. Though Raistlin ended up in the black robes, it was just a means to an end for him – he would have died during the Test if he hadn’t made promises to Fistandantilus, and he and his friends would have died again in King Lorac’s forest if he hadn’t agreed to take the Black Robes and change the focus of his studies. Both Raistlin and Fistandantilus saw this as an opportunity to get ahead.

Well, in the Star Wars Prequels, the Sith don’t go around parading and announcing that they’re Sith. Sidious? Hidden, the protagonists don’t even know for sure if he exists. Tyranus? aka Count Dooku, not outed until the end of Attack of the Clones. Vader? By his time, the Sith are in power and can make the rules however they want–and do, for about 20 years.

I thought the point of wearing black robes was for the fashion statement! I had this essentially a black knight neutral evil character. The only thing he cared about was attention. He didn’t believe in bad publicity, so long as people knew of his names and deeds and he considered that glory, even if what he was known for was kicking orphans in the teeth. I didn’t have him go out of his way to be cruel, but played him as this magnificent bastard who didn’t believe in the concept of evil or good, and that everyone did what was best for themselves. He decked himself out in doomy spiky black armor for the lulz and intimidation.

Reading most of the comments it seems mostly liked Spoony has a completely new community of basically D&D RPG people. Is that true?

The way I understand it is, first of all, all wizards get their power from the three moons. These are more or less the gods they worship. They may worship Takhisis, Paladine, whatever but it’s more by proxy than anything else. But in order to most efficiently draw power from these moons, they have to align themselves with whichever moon they’re drawing power from.

Many of the wizards I read about didn’t straight up go out of their way to be good, evil or neutral. The moons they served may be more representations of their own innate goodness or evil, and they may find that they most efficiently cast spells when they draw power from the moon they are most closely aligned with. Wearing robes with colors aligned to that particular moon would further grant them favor with that moon which would further enhance their spells.

And you may ask “well why don’t wizards just keep changing robes?” Some of them do. Raistlin, as you said, started out wearing red robes, Fistandantilus started out as a white robed wizard, going straight to black and Magus was swapping robes constantly, sometimes wearing robes that were a combination of red, white and black.

whats the name of the song in the opening theme

I know who I am, I am an evil man.

so what happens if you wear blue, green, yellow or grey robes instead of red, white or black?

Vecna escaped Ravenloft too.

Just to think, even LOKI had the right idea to wear a pimp suit in front of the public.

BEST
DRESSED
VILLIAN

EVER!!!!!!!!

It is also possible that if it is the wizards choice and people see the black robe as evil regardless of how the robes wearers see an act themselves that in addition to the fact that black mages gain power faster it is possible the people wearing the robes see wearing the robe as running around saying that they’re the worlds greatest swordsman just hoping someone will call them on it.

^^

I’m Swiss, it’s not weird to be neutral. Just means we don’t take unreasonable crap from anyone, especially not from germany or the us

I think the most obvious and overlooked reason for wearing black robes or simply stating you are evil is to make a statement. They are not wearing them to inform people they are evil, but rather to say “I am the most bad ass guy in the world and a dare you to come and prove me wrong!” Being a “Sith” was an honor. Like being a Nazi (sorry, best analogy). It brought fear and respect. I am sure some

Maybe the black robe wearers of the Tower are pretty much the emo kids of the sorcerous world? They’re horribly immature and arrogant when they pick their robe color, and they’re just all “You shouldn’t trust me, you know… I’m baaad news.”

I still can’t imagine how any of the other sorcerers would ever take them seriously after picking a black robe, though- has anyone ever seriously been intimidated by an emo kid?

The second edition splatbooks for each class were notoriously badly written. The Druid one in particular is insane. They literally talk about the metagame concept of LEVEL in an IN CHARACTER FASHION. Like ‘the druids contest with one another to see who gets to be the next level 12′

For some reason I feel like the Dark Powers should be the Lady of Pain. Ravenloft is her “fuck it” button when she really needs an evil Maze dropped on someone.

So what order does Simco the Magician come from?
He wears black, white and a red bowtie. Truly, Simco breaks ALL the rules of magic!

From what I remembered of the Black Robes is that they were more “lawful evil” than chaos evil scientists maniacly giggling over their evil plan. They were the kind of selfish assholes you won’t let alone with your grandmother, but they were organised and if they gave their word, they’d respect it.
This came to show as Takhisis’ forces were pure chaos and represented by the snake biting its tail. They were the maniacs trying to wreck havoc through the world, but in the end, they always got betrayed by their bretheren. The Black Robes however were a cohesive whole and never really suffered defeat, also without really antagonizing anyone.

that’s how I remember the mythos from when I read it back in high school.

When you turn evil you undergo physical changes. Yes your eyes change color. You can even go pale. Jedi can sense the increase of dark side in you. It takes alot of training to supress that and hide it. Thus, newbie dark jedi can’t hide it.

Eh, i always though neutrality is playing for yourself. Egoistical being which acts in his own interests detached from regular set of moralities, with his own set of moralities which sometimes crosses with regular set of moralities and/or detached from them completely. Think about it like this – ‘Remove root of the problem – remove the problem if it means killing anyone’, ‘My friends – yea, they have my respect because in my eyes they worth something, anyone else – whoever they are – either not touching me and not crossing my way or they are dead’, ‘Stupidity – worst sin’ (as oppose of Christianity to example which supports stupid work-power since its easier to control and easier to suck money out of it) , ‘do not like to steal – but if in need – i’ll do it’. So basically playing neutral is playing Chaotic neutral imo. Like Arthas (if you played Warcraft III)- fuck up world order to prevent Chaos gaining in, for the everything which still will left as not that much.

Oh, Spoony, Spoony, Spoony…. When will you learn?

We LOVE it when you ramble and go off on tangents! That’s why we watch, just to watch you talk! Seriously, dude, that’s why we’re here!

If Spoony didn’t go on tangents the Counter Monkey videos would be boring. For example, one of my favorite ones (The Marvel superhero one) became 100% more awesome with all the tangents. I had never heard of Call of Cthulhu, which is sad since I’m just the kind of person who loves that kind of violence. Course I can now sense when a tangent is coming. That bookshelf behind Spoony always seems to be a distraction. Not a bad one, mind you,

Why I would wear Black Robes…

Sometimes it just doesn’t pay to appear to be good. Sometimes you want people to know that you are going to f*** their s*** up. When you are going to intimidate someone, you don’t want to show up wearing the White Robes, but when pull on the good old Black Robes and announce to ye olde terrified villager, “I will rip out your soul and then wipe my a** with it so that you will smell like sh** for all eternity!” they know you mean business.

I slightly understand the use of ‘classification’ systems in most games, as it does make things easier, but it tends to fall flat on people’s faces sometimes. I agree that an outright declaration of evil doesn’t make sense to me, as most who we classify as ‘evil’ believe themselves to be in the right, whilst everyone else is of the foolish variety.I guess I would have liked it better had that black robe have been labeled for something that didn’t come with a moral attachment.

well dude thing is if they are a sith they kinda sense the dark side in them when near to a jedi so they cant hide it even if they want

In your typical high fantasy setting, magic(the arcane kind) is treated as the science of that setting: people study and even theorize about magic, formulas are calculated in alchemy, etc. Magic from the gods are more like miracles. In theory, you could still have magic without gods. In a way, Dragonlance’s magic rules make sense to me, and at the same time, they don’t.

Crap, I’m late to this party. On the Dooku thing, according to the novelization of Revenge of the Sith, and a few other places I’ve read, Dooku falsely falls. In his mind, he is the good guy and is trying to figure out who Darth Sidious is, but wants to use the Confederacy to rebuild the republic so that the Jedi actually rule. You can argue that this is just as bad, and that the road to hell is paved with good intentions and he’s fallen anyway, but at least to him he’s the real good guy.

The kicker is that he figures it all out right as Anakin slices his head off.

All I can think of in part one is the Ninja Hanglider in DOA.

The Tower of High Sorcery and the way they run shit kinda reminds me of the Circle of Magi from Dragon Age: Origins

The only possible reason I can think of for someone wearing a robe that advertises their alignment is that it’s effectively the only way their powers work. In other words, if you want to cast a healing spell, one of the conditions is that your robe must be white (like wearing a silver ring on your left hand to go through a door in Sigil). Of course, all that would really mean is a little more prep time (or being royally hosed if you get caught off guard) to change into your “real” outfit from your bogus one.
In all, I think it’s fair to just chalk it up to bad writing. I mean, Weis and Hickman basically novelized their D&D campaign, and most of the novels (including Kaz the Minotaur, the first one I ever read) kind of follow the same pattern. It felt like almost every other chapter was introducing a new character with all the in-between chapters filling in plotholes and logical loopholes like why certain characters haven’t shown up before or why someone would be taken alive as a hostage instead of just killed outright. It’s improv gone batty.
Thanks for the synopsis about Raveloft; I had someone approach me about writing them a story in that setting, but I had only the flimsiest grasp as to its premise.

My understanding of the Test of High Sorcery, which I’m getting from what I remember of the several books about Raistlin Majere’s past, is that a wizard taking the Test declares which Order s/he is applying to before the Test. However, the Test itself is supposed to be revelatory for the test taker and the Conclave, your actions within in it bringing insight into your character that is taken into consideration when the Heads of the Orders make a decision on your placement. Raistlin entered the Test intending to be admitted into the Order of White Robes, a natural stance given that he had a loving brother and a willingness to do good in the world. But in the Test, he ended up killing his brother when he flew into a jealous rage after learning that Caramon actually possessed potent magic and just didn’t use it ‘cuz he had his sord guhhyuk.’ Ethically speaking, this is NOT reprehensible from the perspective of the Conclave, but it revealed enough to both the Orders and to Raistlin that it was obvious he would not fit in as a White Robe. But because of his talent, Justinian admitted him as a Red Robe. Later on, as Raistlin is grappling with Fistandantilus’s soul, and making dark pacts with Nuitari, the God of Black magic, he sheds the Red Robes and dons the Black. Its actually a pragmatic decision since a Red Robe wizard would never be permitted to do the things he was planning to do, namely join the Third Dragon War on the side of Takhisis, and he would have been expelled anyway. There were already Black Robe wizards joining the war in this manner, so it was controversial but tolerated by the Conclave until the Dragonarmies started killing of Black Robes out of distrust. But I digress. His decision to become a Black Robe was not because he had internalized the notion that he was an evil asshat, but because being a Black Robe wizard is defined by its pursuit of power at any cost, not allowing common moral values to get in your way, and this set of strictures more closely fit his needs as he looked for ways to expel Fistandantilus’s soul. Now onto the fact that Black Robes exist in the first place: I can only say that Krynn is not a world of moral subjectivism, nor is it a world where the good guys always win, or have the most prosperous societies, etc. If there is a greater god in your cosmology dedicated to the furtherance and proliferation of evil, then there are going to be concrete rewards during your life if you choose to follow an evil path. You don’t have to struggle with yourself to justify your actions as good and right; you want what you want, you’ll get rid of any obstacles that keep you from your goals, and there are plenty of like-minded people who will help you out. Hell, many of the races of Krynn were created by the Evil gods and infused with their moral outlook. (the goblins, hobgoblins, Irda, ogres, minotaurs, etc. etc.) And since magic is such a feared, distrusted, and often misunderstood element, townspeople were likely to shit their pants before confronting a Black Robe or even a Red Robe. Even White Robes were not trusted by other Good-aligned organizations. And that brings me to my last point (since this has gone on far too long and I don’t wanna get into arguing Fifth Age): the Conclave of Wizards was not put into place to be a force of Good, Neutrality, and/or Evil. To them, those moral outlooks were merely the filter through which an individual’s study of magic passed. The understanding and preservation of Magic was always the Conclave’s number one priority, a fact that was understood by all initiated wizards, which is why they were able to peacefully coexist within the Tower of High Sorcery. So being a Black Robe wizard did not guarantee that you would be hunted down and killed, as to some extent you had the protection of all the Orders on your side so long as you didn’t do anything to piss off the Conclave. That’s my say. Thanks for enduring yet another tl;dr post.

Every time the Mad Max joke comes up – it always works. I love it.

Okay.

In regards to the robes thing, it was decreed by the three gods of magic, who were the ones who taught magic to mortals after they realized that when not kept in check, the mortals could do a great deal of damage. That’s the point of the enclave; to regulate magic. However, there are generally three approaches to magic, due to the approach by the gods of magic; Nuitari is evil, born of an evil god and goddess and therefore he has no moral qualms. Solinari is the child of Paladine and Mishakal and therefore has a great deal of things that he can or will not tolerate. Then there’s Lunitari, who being the daughter of Gilean, is morally between the two.

Each order of the Conclave was created by the gods of magic. Therefore, those who worship Solinari as their patron and held a similar moral compass would pursue magic–but only so far. They wouldn’t say, kill someone to get an artifact or leave their friends to die or transform themselves into undead creatures to extend their life. It’s also why someone without a moral compass, while they can choose the white robes and serve under Solinari, would not be able to stay for long; they would break his laws and they would do things that the white robes would not condone and they’d either be forced to change orders or be considered a renegade.

And this is where the other orders come in. The black robe mages believed that you should do anything to gain power, perform any sacrifice to yourself and others, to get what you want. Obviously, there were limits on this due to the nature of the order; anyone who threatened magic as a whole or threatened the image of mages as a whole was going to find themselves in trouble. But generally, killing a few elves in order to obtain a magical spellbook of dark secrets was perfectly fine.

The red robes in contrast, weren’t as uptight about the things that the white robes, but they wouldn’t go to the lengths that a black robe mage would go to. They’d make some shady dealings, but they’d probably refrain from murder or using terrible curses unless it was an exceptional situation.

It was less about “bwa ha ha! I’m EVIL!” and more a case of how one approached learning magic. There were those who, like Nuitari, did not think there should be any moral or social limitations on magic–aside from the obvious MAD scenario. It was simply mages who thought that no school of thought should be limited and you should be allowed to go to any lengths to get what you want for the sake of magic.

Now, this does say a great deal about your character. Obviously if you had no social or moral qualms of getting magic, that made you somewhat untrustworthy, but it also introduced you into an order full of people who thought the same way. That didn’t mean you’d go around trying to rule the world or kill everyone in their sleep for their spellbook. It means, that you have no problems grave robbing for undead guardians and there’s someone who can help you with that. For those of the white robes, they were those who held a high, moral belief on how far you should be allowed to go and what spells or nature of magic you should use. Talking to someone about making an undead monstrosity is simply something you wouldn’t even suggest as a white robe, let alone attempt. And none of your friends in that order would ever help you. And of course, Red is those inbetween.

But that doesn’t mean that when the bigger gods, like Takhisis and Paladine, start to clash, that everyone immediately picks sides and starts killing each other (although this did sort of happen anyway). Basically, Nuitari caused a great deal of trouble when he sided with Takhisis during the War of the Lance, because it had put a great deal of strain on the relationship between the orders and many–but not all–of the black robes had joined her side. Why? One, Nuitari had been swayed by his mother and two, Black Robes are typically greedy and desire to become more powerful by any means necessary. The atmosphere that Takhisis and her world order brings fosters that sort of ambition.

However, Nuitari and his order left sometime after joining Takhisis. One reason being the creation of the Draconians; creating them was an act so perverse that the other two heads of the order considered breaking the Conclave. They only didn’t when they realized that the head of the Black order hadn’t approved it, but a few of her underlings had done it and were later considered renegades (sounds a bit harsh, but consider that Draconians are now one of the few races that can actually alter history via time travel).

But this all sort of boils down to how evil is treated in Dragonlance; evil and good are just that; good and evil. Evil gods act selfishly and only care for mortals for their own twisted desires. Mortals don’t evoke Takhisis because they like her; they invoke her because she will help them. If you’re a thief, you worship Takhisis and her lot because only her lot approves of what you did. Paladine and his branch are disgusted with you and “helping” would consist of you being arrested and making up for your crime. The neutral gods on the other hand, are more devoted to things like knowledge, or creation, or nature. They don’t really factor into the concept of morality.

It is the gods who live in a world of black and white and the mortals are those who are sort of forced to pick and choose how to act. A petty thief, even if they don’t think of themselves as in the wrong, is going to offer their prayer to Takhisis for luck and safety because Paladine won’t do a thing to help her–in fact his idea of helping her is getting her caught and being punished. For her own good. But say, if her brother is murdered, then she will pray to Paladine to bring swift justice to the murderer because that’s something Paladine will help her with.

The reason for the balance is that both sides would become outright tyrannical. While Paladine’s sort of world would have people safe and peaceful–they would not be allowed to enjoy anything that’s considered sinful. Cheated on your wife? Your scum and you’re going to pay for it. Cut class early? Hell no. Takhisis on the other hand, would create a world where you can enjoy any sin you want–assuming you can afford it. But it doesn’t provide any safety that society needs; people are ruled through power and fear, they are abused and they in turn would abuse others.

Interestingly enough, Paladine understands that his sort of world would make mortals miserable, hence why he’s for the balance. Takhisis however, is pretty much an evil bitch who only cares about herself and her desires and therefore is constantly trying to usurp the balance for her own ends.

My theroy for the sith argument is, YODA CAN SENCE EVIL!!! Yoda would just be like *ping* “Evil in him, I sence.” Boom! Yer dead. With the robes, my theroy is similar, the wizards can sence your alignment.

And only one question still remains…What the hell does any of this have to do with ninja!?
L.B.: I’m not entirly sure….
-.- Great…I’m refrencing Spoony to answer my own questions…

but i thought only Clerics get spells from their gods, Mages dont need to worship anyone to gain spells.

Just a small story on my part. I am in the middle of making a new character right now (not part of this universe, just the usual DnD verse) and he’s gonna be a wizard wearing black or darkish robes. He’s actually not a bad guy at all, it’s just he’s cursed so he purposely dressed himself up to be as menacing as possible so that people would stay away from him.

That’s how most male Dathomirians (the race of Darth Maul) look, you racist bitch!