Spoony tackles the most notoriously stupid sequel in sci-fi!
Wow spoony, I’ve never seen so many (good) video reviews in a short time. You must really have this impressive headache by now.
Oh I always wondered when you were going to dig into this cinematic disaster.
Now that they compared Blade Runner with the piece of shit! YOU ,SPOONY, MUST DESTROY THIS FILM AND BURY IT WITH THE ET GAMES IN THE DESERT!
I say we find this “LeHah” guy and string him up by his neck.
Actually, if you read through the entire thread, they have just one, non-ad-hominem point; they’re basically saying that Spoony’s review isn’t funny because he’s parroting out the same old tired things other reviewers have pointed out. Granted, they’re also saying Spoony’s hating the movie for the sake of hating the movie and becoming Internet famous (obviously flawed), but they’re not really saying that Wing Commander the Movie doesn’t suck, it’s just that Spoony’s review is old hat.
This reminds me how long it’s been since I’ve seen Highlander. I should go back and watch it again. And NOT this movie.
Oh, and I actually thought Blade Runner was overrated, but EVEN I WOULDN’T compare it to this travesty!
I love how you included that tool’s post from the CIC forum Spoon-dawg. That was some hilarious shit.
I’m pretty much a Highlander virgin, and I had heard the sequel was awful (seeing a DVD called the “Renegade Version” certainly hammered this concept home), but I didn’t even begin to imagine something *this* stupid. Why do I get the feeling that Part 1 doesn’t even get halfway through the film?
Spoony! I have a thought about Highlander2: The Quickening! … It had to be written by the same guy who wrote Half Life: Full Life Consequences.
Hey, know how you can get a Scotsman on the roof? Tell him drinks are on the house! Hiyooooooo!
Man, you’re at the top of your game in this video and I’ll totally never make fun of you for having the name you do. Mostly because I often forget your name isn’t actually Spoony.
… wait, how do you have an ark in Arizona?!
Spoony! I have a thought about Highlander2: The Quickening! … It had to be written by the same guy who wrote Half Life: Full Life Consequences.
John MacLeod, who was Connor MacLeod’s brother, was typing at his computer…
Ok, seriously, that intro had me hiding under the covers for fear of the Madness of Spoony face making another appearance.
(BTW, we want a better valentine.) Still, excellent review!
Also- nice Star Fleet shirt. Have you… had occasion… to rip it yet? /bad Shatnerese
Man,you’re crossing off the names on your “worst anything ever” hitlist like crazy. FFVIII,TF2,Wing Commander… You finally sank your teeth into this cinematic abortion,you got the ball rolling on FFX… You better discover something new to rag on,like Pumpkinhead,before you run out. =)
Wait Spoony didn’t like Team Fortress 2? I need to see this vid cause i love that game.
He meant Transformers 2, not Team Fortress 2.
Dude, you ripped a VHS copy for this?
I could’ve sent you my DVD of this. FOR FREE. TAKE IT.
Great review of one of the most unbelievably crummy movies ever made. And when we’re talking about the Highlander series, that’s saying something! Highlander 2 makes Highlander 4 look like Highlander 3.
For some reason, I kinda expected to see the Terminator coming out of the explosion (you know, like at the end of the first movie?) instead of Connor at the end of the review.
I had only ever seen the first…oh no wait, a guy I was dating 10 years back talked me into seeing the fourth…ugh.
I had only ever seen the first “Highlander” but man, I wasn’t prepared for how dizzyingly stupid this one is. Man, kudos to you for sitting through, and then editing, this one. I can’t wait for the next installment, but I’m gonna need time to recover.
And a bib for the drool.
Oh dear god, I must’ve repressed this movie. This was the first Highlander movie I saw back when I was a kid. I liked it alot, it had weird scifi stuff and cool special effects. I thought the whole Immortal thing was really awesome. Sure alot of it didn’t quite make sense to my 4th grade brain but I always loved it. When I finally saw the first one I thought it was ok but was confused as hell as to why the continuity was so off. Now I haven’t seen this movie in well over a decade and was happy to write it off as an alternate take on the first movie. While watching this review my eyes almost started bleeding from how horrifically stupid this movie was. Btw I’ve lost all respect for my childhood self for being such a fool.
It’s almost like you watched a whole other movie altogether, huh?
Nostalgic betrayal is one of the reasons why I’m holding off watching the original TMNT cartoon. I’ll let seven year old me enjoy it as is.
The General Kitana costume killed me. I was laughing my ass off.
~Sooomewhere over the rainbow.~
New opening sequence… dunno how I feel about that. :( I don’t like change. (But it is cool how you use more footage of yourself in it.)
I love the random Starfleet shirt.
I made the same face when I read the Blade Runner comparison.
Everything about this part of the review is awesome, but the ending had me rolling. My God, they compared this movie to Blade Runner? How did anyone think this was a good idea for a movie?
SHIT THE EVIL CEO IS DR. COX!!! D:
Hmmm. we finally get a review of the movie Spoony always compares stuff to.
Too many great references to count. NAKED ZOMBIE SEAN CONNERY makes his return from spoony’s 3rd review.
LOL Divide by zero!!!
2 things. The first, I was surprise you didn’t do a Dune joke when Connery said “Free Men” and they are in a desert like planet pretty much wearing Fremen like clothing. And also, I was expecting a T1000 joke when McCloud walked “through the fire and flame” or at least a Dragon force joke
Y’know, I’ve often wondered what movie they actually intended to make here. If you ever watch the “Renegade Version” (or, more simply, the Director’s Cut), Zeist becomes “The Distant Past” or some such shit. Which, quite frankly, makes EVEN LESS SENSE! But there are filmed dialog scenes supporting both versions of this movie (the Zeist one and the Distant Past one).
Russell Mulcahy has complained over the years that the producers or financial backers or whomever took control of the movie away from him, but, again, what fucking movie was he intending to make in the first place?! He’s admitted that they would find locations around Buenos Aires, and make up scenes for them on the spot. That doesn’t exactly speak well to the amount of planning that went into this enterprise.
All that said, I absolutely love how terrible this movie is. Because it’s so bad, it holds a special place on my shelf….all three different copies of it I own.
All I have to say is: IT’S ABOUT FUCKING TIME, NOAH!!!
P.S.-As bad as this one is, I still consider ‘The Source’ to be the overall worst film in the franchise, but I find ‘The Quickening’ to be better for review fodder for 2 main reasons: The sheer bat shit insanity of it led to it hurting for a much longer time (also lending to better jokes and commentary) and it cemented the fact that all Highlander sequels will inevitably suck (#3 is the only one that’s passable, but that’s only because it’s almost a carbon copy of the first movie minus Sean Connery and Clancy Brown).
Can’t wait for Part 2!
You’re right. There are no words to describe the crappiness that is Highlander: The Source….
I remember when I was 10, I actually liked this film, because I was like “Lol people getting their heads chopped off.”
Now I think back, yeah, it’s was clearly written by a committee of goldfish.
Rob: “Hey, Dave, what’s this film called? Highlander?”
Dave: “Yeah, high…what was it again?”
Rob: “We’re writing an Alien film aren’t we?”
Dave: “Yes. Yes we are.”
If i remeber right the quickening is the hole lightning thing that happens after an immortal gets his/her head cut off. so why name a sequal after something that had relevince in the first movie but not this one?
I always knew the sun was evil.
To be fair, super mario bros 3 taught us this.
lol “mccloud is at Bar”
The ending was absolute gold, hahaha. Looking forward to part 2.
The Renegade DVD version of Highlander 2 removes all mention of Zeist and restores some of the scenes cut from the theatrical version.It’s only a marginal improvement however,you can’t really polish a turd.
Ack..i didn’t notice CitizenKiryu post before.I’ll go behead myself now.
I’ve only watched the Renegade Edition and a fan-made Mystery Science Theater 3000 film featuring the original (with a few cuts made here and there): http://www.eskimo.com/~rkj/MST.html .
Wow, I think this just may be the funniest video you’ve ever done (though it may just be that I hate this goddamn movie). Can’t wait for part 2.
“Highlander 2 The Quickening is the smartest sci-fi thriller since Blade Runner”
Man, I haven’t seen Highlander 2 in years, but even when I watched it I knew it was rock stupid and don’t really remember anything about the plot. As it stands, this review is catching me up on a lot of bullshit. It makes Chronicles of Riddick look like a fantastic sequel. I forgot Michael Ironside was in this, too. Dang.
You know what I DO remember? That awesome airline safety video that Sean Connery watches. That was the one genuinely worthwhile part of the film.
Your face at the end of this part just about made me laugh myself stupid. Love it!
What’s next? Highlander 3?
this is pure comedy gold ^_^ and I like the new intro
Oh….this. I blocked the memory of this a long time ago. Ah, well, let’s get it over with.
BTW, is Dr. Insano from Zeist, too? Because those two birdbrains kind of remind me of him.
the reasn he survied the collision with the exploding tank is because he is no longer the only “immortal” on Earth. as for the clothes…they’re made from Jesus Christ’s pubic hair (and one day, you!!!).
Holy shit! thats Raiden from the Mortal Kombat movie! you know! the shitty one!
You mean there’s a good Mortal Kombat movie out there somewhere? :D
The first one WAS the good one.
Yes. And Lambert was the good Raiden. The shitty Raiden was played by James Renard, because Lambert thought the 2nd script sucked.
Which says alot, seeing as how he did THIS movie, Highalnder, 2.
He was forced to do this
You best be trolling,boy. The first MK movie is the only videogame movie worth watching.
I beg to differ. The Street Fighter Animated Movie is a video game movie worth watching to me.
Maybe if you have A.D.D. AND no standards.
Did your parents beat you as a child or something? Because if you can’t appreciate the glorious manly awesomeness that is the first MK movie,I have to seriously question the amount of testosterone flowing through your veins.
Yes, shitty. But at least he didn’t puss out of a fight and said he’ll pray for his friends.
You got that backwards, compadre. Christopher Lambert played Raiden in the GOOD Mortal Kombat movie. The first one. Some jackoff named James Renard played him in the SHITTY SEQUEL.
A failure is you.
Just realized I misinterpreted Jacob’s first post there slightly. How silly of me… :D
The failure is you for saying the first one was good. “Better than the sequal” does not equal “good” by a long shot.
I love the new intro Spoony!
Who knew the insano family were from Zeist?
“Highlander 2: The Quickening is the smartest sci-fi thriller since Blade Runner.”
I remember loving this film as a kid, my god I was a fucking idiot back then. this entire movie must just be a colossal joke on behalf of the studio, there’s no way a studio could actually seriously consider this a releasable film.
Random trivia – Christopher Lambart almost lost his thumb during the fight scene with the two chuckleheads at the start. Imagine THIS being the movie you were permanently disfigured for……
Looking forward to part 2
“CHAANGE, YOU GOT ANY CHAANGE AARRAGGHH”
oh my god that was brilliant :D
You are really sensitive about lighting in videos? You keep going back to it and apologizing about it and I never notice anything.
seeing you chew on the movie reminded me when i was ranting one time on the actual movie Pumpkinhead Blood Wings. oooo lord that one pissed me off. i’ll be honest i never watched these movies but i had always heard of highlander jokes and such. cool to see more info on it as well as you going crazy. :)
that reminds me I need to actually sit down and watch the first Highlander movie….and ONLY the first Highlander movie. Because according to rotten tomatoes Highlander 3: End game is only slightly better than Highlander 2: the Quickening by about 3%
which is sad because Highlander 2 has the dreaded 00%
which brings up a good question, are you going to review Highlander 3 too?
The ending is great
A more realistic idea is that their planetary shield corporation got them so much money that they expanded into other businesses, so they became like Walmart only with a giant planetary shield corporation. And that’s where the price gouging exists.
The rest are just unforgivable.
PS: maybe its just me, but the ship they meet on looks like a trashed Firefly ship.
Unless they’ve completely taken over all of those other markets, then they’re not really a monopoly. But if they do have a monopoly in multiple markets, then they’re not so much a monopoly as they are the centralized controller of a significant portion of the entire economy.
looks more like the evil twin of balderunner to me :)
great review Spoony!
“Highlander 2″ is one of those strange, incompetently-written movies that simultaneously makes me think that I could make it as a writer while convincing me I could never make it as a writer:
I could succeed because I would never write anything this aggressively stupid.
I couldn’t succeed because I would never write anything this aggressively stupid.
sweet new intro!!
Hey during the composite shot, starting at 12:38 you can see a jeep come twords the camera, then back away from the camera, as if the footage is reversed – was that in the original or did Spoony do it?
I’m guessing Spoony did, to make the narration fit the footage. If not, well, god bless those filmmakers and their little sippy cups and tard helmets.
and in highlander 3 no one loses a word of zeist again XD
what where they thinking ? XD
who made highlander 2 at all ? O_o
sure not the same one who made highlander 1 and 3 ^-^
Actually it’s the same producer (Russell Mulcahy ) for 1 and 2. Highlander 3 has a different producer. They all have different writers.
What they were thinking was that they wanted to make a sequel and needed a story. Yes, it’s crappy and yes, it’s one of the worst films of all time. But you also have to remember that this should be reviewed more like an alpha version of the movie whereas the Renegade Version is like RC1 ;-)
Somehow I’m guessing Highlander 2 doesn’t have an awesome Queen soundtrack… Since the ruined everything, they probably got Air Supply instead.
Ah, Highlander. I vaguely remember loving the TV series as a kid, but in retrospect that was probably just the combination of that kick ass Queen song and my little girl crush on Adrian Paul. Glad I never saw the movies. Does Macleod have a French accent there? That’s just weird.
I think I’m going to watch the series again. I’m already destroying my childhood memories by watching Sliders again (hint: it’s not as awesome as you remember) so I guess I can take on Highlander as well.
Christophe(r) Lambert has a naturally-unchangeable French accent. That’s probably why they paired him up with Sean Connery.
Highlander: the French alien from Zeist!
Yeah, I can see why people don’t like this movie. Damn.
Ah, such a great change of pace from the schmit sammich I was served last night. Dr. Insano may be ruined for me for all time!
Don’t be a douche, Nostalgia Critic. Take it like a man.
Ha! Just checked out the forum that told Spoony to burn for having a poster of Highlander II. If I didn’t know any better, I’d swear about five posters there (which includes the admin, I think) were doing tongue-in-cheek Comic Book Guy impersonations.
I checked out the same forum as well and man…I’d love to have a life so good that I could be so bitter over something so trivial and bitch about it (at least in every other post…and his signature) in rhyming couplets.
The thing to remember about the first Highlander was that while it was a really fun film, it wasn’t in terms of plot or acting a particularly GOOD film. It has its moments, but it’s not one of the best. (Seriously, go back and pay attention to the sound every object makes when swung around, anything from an ancient katana blade to a pipe. It’s hilarious.) Where it truly shined was in terms of direction and cinematography. The look and feel of both really influenced a generation of filmmakers to follow because it was really innovative. Nice bit of trivia: the way they shot the final duel between MacLeod and the Kurgan? They kicked the camera back and forth across the floor. Simple solution that produced a really wonderful visual.
Highlander 2, on the other hand . . . any and all of the charm of the first one was just ruined. Not just in terms of story, but in terms of presentation. The signature “look and feel” of the first one was gone. Pay attention to the shots in Spoony’s review; the whole thing comes off as a really pedestrian effort, something anyone who worked on the thing should be ashamed to be associated with.
Just because you’re working with little to no budget doesn’t mean you have license not to give a crap. You do the best with what you got . . . otherwise you’re just wasting everyone’s time.
They actually had a big budget and even went over it. The movie isn’t finished. The studio’s insurance company stepped in and took the whole project over.
Holly smoke ! i thought this movie never existed ! Why are you doing this to yourself, you crazy man !
But Noah, you’ll have to let 2 dickweeds on your ark to ensure the future existence of dickweeds for the re-population of the planet.
Oh I love Bar, I usually have Sandwich and Drink before going to City and see Opera XD
nice mst3k comment
Great review, lots of fun. This might have been asked, but theres an 8-Bit Song soundbed during the first segment, wondering what it was? Man what a weird sequel to a great movie.
Wow, fuck the guy who said you should die in a car fire. What a bastard…
I forgot to ask, WHERE’S YOUR ARK! HAH! I’m sorry, please let me on your ark
Hahaha! The error message at the end made me laugh out loud. I haven’t done that in a while now, thanks! Awesome review!
That was great, I can’t wait for part 2. Seriously though how do you make a movie that’s worse than all the animated episodes combined that’s amazing
Hey Spoony! Great video. God what a piece of crap that movie is. I’m a unapologeticfan of the first movie and the TV series. I just like to pretend this one never happened, to me it’s “non-cannon”.
What’s your opinion on the tv series?
Katana sitting on the couch watching wizard of oz made me laugh so hard Noah. A smashing review.
My dad loved the first one he doesn’t know of any of the sequels exist which is for the best it seems.
I think the sequel makes more sense if you’ve never seen the original but not by much i mean aliens just leave the immortality shit vague no one would really care as long as heads are chopped off.
highlander 1 and 2 always take me back to being about 10 years old. still love the first movie to this day but the second was awful and i was always expecting you to review it sooner or later and you didn’t dissapoint! great stuff
I like the new openings you’ve been doing lately. Next one should have footage from Kickassia
I remember seeing the second movie and thinking it was the third, because a load of stuff is established in the first five minutes that wasn’t mentioned at all in the first movie. God this film sucked. And Spoony pointing out all the ways it sucked is very satisfying. Though when you mentioned the redundant new broadcast, I thought you were going to mention the weather forecast, which even admitted it had been the same since the shield went up. The woman who attacked him at the start was a former weather forecaster, apparently. Also, who else went ‘Holy shit! It’s Dr. Cox!’ when watching this?
I can’t say thank you enough for reviewing this movie. If any movie in the history of mankind deserve to be reviewed its this crap-tasic movie. I look forward to part two.
I had to pause it whenJar-Jar flashed up on screen I was laughing so fucking hard. Spooney ROCKS, hopefully he lets me on his ark.
Something tells me your chances of getting on the ark increase if your female, and is factored by your hotness quotient. Maybe cool people like Sir Sean Connery have a sliver of a chance =p.
And thank you to Spoony for bringing this one to my attention. I’ve almost watched it a few times on netflix. That could have been horrific.
In my opinion this might be one of your funniest reviews. Keep ‘em coming, Spoony One!
I’m geniuninly surprised you didn’t mention the Quickenings from FF12 seeing as they are named the same and makes just about as much sense in how it works.
Didnt you review this already in text form? Ah-well still good anyway.
I liked the new opening on that, btw.
Why review a movie that doesn’t exist? It’s double CRAZY!
Maybe I’m asking too much but could you at least try not to get political in some of these videos. Between this and the Benzai video, its been kind of bothersome. Just a minor complaint.
As for Highlander 2, I could write a thesis on what is wrong with this movie. You are spot on. This movie is a disgrace to the series. Granted, after the first their shouldn’t even be a series but still. I’m glad your tackling this one, but you would have to dedicate the website to explaining everything that is wrong with Highlander 2.
I agree. I come to TSE and TGWTG to get away from everyday crap. Politics will instantly turn me off.
Did I miss something? What politics?
Well, to be fair it wasn’t a political rant, and more of just a little joke. Now the Benzai video on the other hand, THAT was an irritating rant. I honestly couldn’t finish the video after Benzai went on this bizzare rambling about Conan’s sword somehow symbolizing atheism. Most sword-forging scenes are there to show us resolve of the character making it, and how the sword itself symbolizes it’s maker. Forging scenes, or indeed any scenes where we see a character painstakingly craft something is usually done to show us the qualities of the maker being reflected in his creation, that it’s being made for a purpose, and shows the resolve of the character by showing just what legnths he is going through to craft instruments for his goals. The most recent example would be the opening scenes of Iron Man 2, where we see Whiplash going through the long and tiresome task of building his arc light suit, it shows his resolve to destroy his enemy, to put this weapon to good use, and the long task of it all reflects just how serious he is. Conan’s sword was to symbolize the strength and resolve of Conan himself.
Apparantly Benzai thinks the sword-forging scene in Conan was to show “hitting religion with a hammer”. That takes some serious projection of your own bigotries and a whole ordeal of other mental gymnastics to come up with something like THAT.
But I digress, I too am going on a long rant, and Spoony did not. He made a little joke, I don’t have a problem with it.
Great stuff, Spoony. Here’s waiting for Part 2!
I don’t like the new opening!
I watched this movie about three times and it’s not so bad if you think of it as a standalone movie and you just turn your brain off.
All in all looking forward to the next part(s).
You can’t watch a SEQUEL to one of the movies that gathered almost a cult around it as stanalone… EVER!
By the same logic Star Wars Ep1 wasn’t THAT bad if you block out the “youknowwho”
Sure I can!
Well maybe it’s just because I never really care too much about a movie or a series (well maybe the original Star Trek). Heck, I don’t even care about all the drama that comes from the fanboys/hatters.
Also SW Ep.1 was enjoyable, Ep.2 was shit, Ep.3 was semi shit.
You trolling?…Actually, I kind of agree. I watched this as a kid too. It was awesome in a Rambo sequel sort of way. They fall, break bones, go through all sorts of shit, then don’t die. It’s mindless fun that will rot your brain once you try actually thinking about the stupid, stupid plot holes. With that said, this review is shaping up to be another defining moment for Spoony. Can’t wait for the next part, or if he dares, FFX. The worst he could do is a vlog, and I don’t really mind those either. ^_^
No I’m not trolling. It’s just that it’s not that bad of a movie (there are much much worse movies out there) and as long as you don’t care about all the stupid shit that goes on it is rather enjoyable.
Thats the problem with your logic, this is not suppose to be a standalone movie. It was suppose to be connected to the first movie, even if fans want to pretend its not. Thinking of it as such is merely another form of denial.
Though I do agree, its not as bad as people make it out. I’ve seen worse movies.
I feel quite proud knowing I live in Glencoe, where these films were made :)
Spoony, why are you reviewing a movie that doesn’t exist? Just kidding of course, but you SHOULD point out that this movie was so godawful that it was the first franchise film to get decanonized not just by the fans, but by the producers and its very presence put the penny on the tracks that caused the train wreck that was the Highlander film continuity. Highlander 3 has nothing to do with Highlander 2, Highlander: Endgame has nothing to do with Highlander 3 and Highlander: The Source has nothing to do with anything. I hope Spoony that you’ll review the other Highlander sequels, perhaps give us a quick rundown of the Series before getting to Endgame. It’ll help avoid such nagging questions like “Why are there so many Immortals running around all of a sudden?”, “What the hell is the dude from Wiseguy doing there and why does he know so much about Immortals?”, “Why is Connor not the hero and why is he acting so out of character?”, “Who’s this Duncan asshole, I paid to see Connor goddammit” (hint: think Fabio with a sword), and “Who’s this Methos jagoff?”
i don’t have to watch this movie now that you’re reviewing it. thanks! c:
liking that opening sequence. also, can i get on your ark..?
This feels like one of those sequels that you only see on Sci-Fi or straight to DVD that have absolutely nothing to do with the original movie.
As for that corporate monopoly, when it comes to corporations building the shields to block out the sun, THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!
I think the best thing to do with this sequel is to pretend it doesnt exist. I love the highlander series, but as far as Im concerned, there was no highlander 2-not that the others were that good either, but atleast they werent this bad. As is said in the review, this movie just completely ruins the ideas that are established in the first one. A total and utter waste of film. Your review, however, was not a waste of film and was excellent as usual
Spoony i think Noah is an epic name that exudes charisma and manliness. So can i come on your life saving arc when the world ends now please :)
I guess Noah will bring two of every spoon onto his ark.. and possibly two sporks since they are semi-related. Then he can have experiments with them all afterwards. Or something.
But anyway.. great video here. Loved all the stuff you pointed out only 12 minutes into the movie, haha.
Awesome new intro. The audio quality is a lot better in this intro too. “How do you but fuck an entire series in 12 minutes!!?!” hahahaa I love that line!
lmao i never knew this movie was that bad, i avoided it for years.
Why would the makers of Highlander 2 totally disregard the first film? That is some horrible film making.
“Why would the makers of Highlander 2 totally disregard the first film?”If they didn’t, there would be no sequel, obviously.
NOOOO not Dr. Cox!!!!!!
You know i am a huge Fan of highlander…well all but one of them That’s Right highlander 2 God why did they ever make it like that…i could think of fantasy reasons or such to why they could be immortal…but aliens…Omg …the only thing though i disagree with is you forgot some thing spoony …the reason he mastered the flying board Thing Is becuase well he cut off the guy’s head you Gain all there knowledge Experience and stuff like that ….the age thing still confused me Dude suck if you keep killing and keep getting younger turn in to a baby again O.O
It would suck worse if he was stuck as a wheezy old man when he became immortal again.
Hold on, you have an ark, let me on please! I mean the polar ice caps are going to melt, soooooo I DON’T WANNA DIEE!!
It's the same guy whe made the first one, Russell Mulcahy. How could he fuck it up so bad!?
Oh yeah… I loved this movie because it was just a rape of the first storyline. Don't get me wrong, I Loved the first movie. It was fine the way it was. IT didn't need a sequel. Yet, when this came to theaters I still ran to see it. Just the fact its story is so retarded, its kinda funny.
Ramirez is the highlight of this movie. I watch it again just to see Ramirez in the future. You have to admit, his second death is kinda stupid but at the same time quite an exit. I thought it had style.
Plus, its funny to watch the villain have a duh moment when Conner spells out how stupid his plan was. Yeah, he could have just sat back and let Conner die of old age but instead he really gave Conner back all his youth and energy.
Oh and they tried to edit this once to fix the problems but the whole space alien thing was such a lost cause all they did was make it more confusing. Really, does the storyline get much better after they pretend this movie never happened? No, it doesn't.
Its amazing, its like they gave him brain damage before the filming started.
O.O you divided by zero! OH SHI-!!
I mean… I believed you when you said it was bad, but… ALIENS? Granted I've only seen the Highlander TV series, but even I know that's bullshit. Also your expression at the end of the video was priceless.
Yeah! Spoony's back!! woooooooo!
You've got fertile ground to work with in Highlander 2, but I think you've still just about outdone yourself.
Thinking about the movie in abstract, I wonder if it could have been a passable spin-off just by using a the same two actors and the same fantasy/sci-fi plot without the fake Highlander tie-in. Seeing the movie in detail it's obvious that no; it couldn't.
… he never left.
I believe the director's cut aka “Renegade Version” solve most(not all) of the problems in Spoony's part 1 review:- the entire beginning have been altered. The shield launch sequence appears later as a minor flashback.
- There is no more Planet Zeist.. it's replaced with :” A long time ago…” which suggest they're humans from the past with some technology(something in the line of BSG)
- most of Connor MacLeod's cheesy voice overs are gone.
- some campy scenes and dialogues have either been altered or deleted.
- more references to the 1st movie.
- anything to do with the Quickening is totally gone.
- General Katana and the flying Insano brothers travels through time and not through space.
- no more floating(and glowing) MacLeod at the end. The ending show MacLeod and Louise kissing and the scene pans up to the skies.
…and ton of other changes.
The alterations does make a bad movie into an average one(still far from good but a least tolerable this time)
The financial backers interfered .
Hmm….this movie is not very good.
Man, I loved this movie!
I have to admit — This is my guilty pleasure. But it's because I've watched highlander 2 before 1.
And yeah. Even in this case it doesn't make much sense, it's a good movie to kill braincells C:
Pluuuus — Awesome move with that “division by zero” error :) (Altho… Explorer.exe?)
OH GOD!! I got only seven minutes in and my head exploded! And now my room looks like I went to a Gallagher Show.
Seven more minutes and several rolls of scotch tape later I am ready to brave the rest of the review.
“I am talking about my penis”
after “ashes to ashes, dust to dust, what you dont use is going to rust” quote by General Katana
Spoony removed my other comment.. Booooo. Dr Insano has learned how to control his original master
Nope, but I'm still of the opinion that every other Highlander movie after the first just never existed, even the one that was based on the TV show. The one that I actually saw in the theater even. Nope, none of it ever happened. It was all a mass hallucination. Because no one would be that stupid to make a sequel(s) that were that horribly conceived and written based on the original source material.
The TV show was okay, but you could sort of pretend that the end of the first movie hadn't happened at that point. But the movies… Nope, never existed. And if they ever did make a Highlander 2, it would have to be a Sci-fi action film as good as… oh… uh… I don't know… Blade Runner.
Oh God… Notoriously stupid is right. I hate this movie so much. I'll take Endgame. At least that has people in it I liked and worked reasonably well with the television series. METHOS~<3
huh?? where have you been? did you not notice him doing tons of shows from a hotel room?? they weren't nearly as good as the stuff he does at home, hence my excitement that he's back… in his home… doing proper episodes.
I found the whole ark in the backyard funny! =D
Spoony you spoonjew, they are IMMORTAL on the planet they come from. You pick on insignificant things too much in this movie instead of focusing on what you’re good at the gaping wide right-in-front-of-you script problems
(btw im jewish and a fan too so i can say that nanaaa)
I’m only 4 minutes in, but, oh, thank god. You aren’t stretching out 4:3 material to 16:9.
2:07-that is extreme to wish death on someone who has a poster of a bad movie. Even if they do have bad taste.
3:46- global warming in 1999?! Geez, I missed that alternative time line. The future may not be that extrme and it probably to survive due to the carbon dioxide preventing heat and maybe uv rays from getting through while retaining the current heat it has.
3:57- better take a picture of it.
5:04- maybe they should have blocked out part of the uv rays that get to the planet. Maybe he should have tapped into the mind of my ecology teacher. He would tell him what he should have done.
6:16- Maybe they bought the government. dum dum ddduuuummm!
12:44- Looks like split screen action.
14:00- he broke the fourth wall to warn the movie watchers to stop.
16:32- I hope he didn’t waste all his ammo on the hobo.
This is one film that should have never have been made, what was the studios thinking? the first film was good enough why was a sequel needed? At least the Renegade version/Special edition they tried to fix things so that it fits better into the Highlander cannon but it is still not enough to fix the slop that was this film I hate to think what the Spoony one thought of the Third one.
Spoony's face at the end is priceless, I lol'd hard, great review so far, can't wait for part 2!
Yeah what is up with Aliens always knowing Earth TV an Movie references an sayings? Is our culture that much more entertaining that they all watch an study it?
“Best sequel since Blade Runner”
You fuggin serious movie?
Hurry up with part 2, we're all waiting on it!
Ok, need to comment this:First: Highlander II, the original cut is a horrific piece of crap, one of the worst cases of studio meddling ever. They booted of the creators of the original movie and made up some piece of shit. The Director's Cut have removed all that Zeist bullshit and replaced it with the Time after Time (wtf that is supposed to mean), and basically have Ramirez and McLeod sent back in time to live their life from the beginning (indicating that they're born again in the past, explaining why McLeod know nothing about immortality, of course neither of this make any sense, but it's better than Zeist). And if you think tht kiss in the original cut is horrific, in the Director's Cut they acctuallly have a quickie there on the street right after the stooges are killed (yes, the original directors made the girl even more of a slut than the studio people). All in all the Original Cut is a horrific piece of shit, while the Director's Cut just barely save it an makes it just another bad sequel. I think the problem here was the very idea of making a sequel to Highlander, since it had a definite ending.
Highlander III is also quite bad, but somewhat better, since it makes a little more sense, being a prequel to the first Highlander. Highlander IV is even worse then Highlander II (ok, the original cut of Highlander II is still worse, but I dare say Highlander IV is a complete disaster).
About 8:25…you can see the jump pad they use to fling people up and forward for those explosion scenes you see so often in movies. I'm surprised Spoony didn't comment on it when it happened.
I guess they spent all their money on bad writing and poor special effects and couldn't afford to have the movie screened for little errors like this.
Is it just me, or was the intro, like… different? It seems longer, but… not. I dunno.
Out of curiosity I tracked down this LeHah guy and that post saying Spoony should die in a car fire for his Highlander 2 poster, and my God the people on the Wing Commander CIC cater to a large amount of tight assed fun haters.
Or it was just a half dozen people on that forum who don't like webshows and wanted to vent their frustrations on one of the more popular ones around. Either way, lame reaction from them.
what was even worse than Highlander IV was the Highlander cartoon series that aired in the 90's that followed Conner and Ramirez on the planet Ziest. The “story” was Ramirez teaching Conner how to fight with a sword to defeat the other immortals, that means that Conner was immortal long before he ever went to earth and that Ramirez knew who Conner very well before they got (as spoony called) married!
You forgot the anime!
I remember the cartoon, it wasn't on the planet Zeist it was on a post-apocalyptic Earth.
Your the shit man. I like the way you go after the most stupidest movies I have ever seen. If you write a f**cking scrpit. Do your f**king homework or there wouldn't be shitty movies. Like the Highlander 2 make's no god damn sense, but o well. What can you do when you have ppl writing movie scripts while they are wacking off. The blood goes to there head have a brain tumbor. Not an Idea. I f**king Brain tumbor. I feel ya man and I better get on your ark when the world goes to shit. lol I still have to watch the part 2. I wouldn't watch this movie again, but with you in the background giving it shit. Is just makes the movie better
Now I know which movie Spoony was referring to during his SWAT 4 playthrough, the 'Sean Connery film that must not be mentioned.' It's this one!
(Did you know that this film got a 0% on Rotten Tomatoes? Its even lower than Battlefield Earth! I didn't even think that was possible!)
Something just clicked. Durning the bit where Connery and the Highlander get 'married,' Connery says something about a bond that's stronger than death…that must have been in some way intended to explain Connery's subsequent resurrection. Of course besides being totally lame and not a real explanation at all, it's gets totally lost because I only noticed it on my second time through this review!
1 good thing about this film….. we get to hear Sean Connory's sexy voice
Dear god. So this is why people hate this movie so much. You're right, spoony – they managed to butt-fuck an entire series in under 30 minutes. That's incredible.
Haha, that forum post about The Spoony One at 2:02. “You're no one I ever want to break bread with”? Quoting the second Conan the Barbarian book from 1933 (“Yeah, I read it before it was cool”) like a sacred credo? For someone that accuses Spoony of “suck[ing] all the joy out of everything in the guise of an intellectual argument”, he seems to have that technique down pat.
Humans indeed are horrible at practicing what they preach.
That and the guy's likely barely even taken a glance at Spoony, so convinced is he that every internet reviewer is stupid because they jump on the bandwagon.
The worst crime of this movie is not using Sean Connery and said sexy voice well. :D
It's mainly because most writers are human. We just don't think about cultural references that refer to Earth, because we (well, most of us ;) have never left it. It's an easy trap for a writer to fall into.
For instance, in comics, people usually think of Superman as a human with super powers, but he's not a human, and he doesn't really have SUPERpowers. He's stronger and faster than any human and has special powers – but they're natural functions of his own race. Making people “normal” should not affect him, because he _is_ normal. (See Linkara's review of Act of God for what I'm referring to.)
A mark of a good writer in any medium is writing aliens like they're actually aliens – with different patterns of thought, thinking of themselves as the normal ones with US as the weird ones to them.
Unfortunately good writing is lost upon this film.
You may get your wish. They're remaking Highlander, hopefully with no Quickening involved.
… I have a tiny little question. Yes, I understand that this movie makes as much sense as a schizophrenic (disorganised schizophrenia with ongoing psychosis) on acid, but why, if Katana sent them to earth 500 years ago is he only NOW trying to kill McCloud. And WHY? I mean if he hadn't gone back by then (and how, what did they have a spaceship?) then why would he….
Oh god. Why is THAT the plot hole I'm picking up.
WHY IS HIGHLANDER FROM FUCKING SPACE!!!! WHAT WERE THEY ON WHEN THEY WROTE THIS SHIT!! YES I AM USING CAPITALS FOR EMPHASIS DESPITE HOW ANNOYING IT IS BECAUSE THIS IS JUST THAT BAD!!
I feel tainted. This is what I felt like after being exposed to twenty minutes of Twilight. I showered for hours BUT THE STENCH WOULDN'T COME OFF!!!
HAHAHAHA, wow, this is awesome. i'm dying here XD
You seem a bit confused there, chief: that's a quote from “The Scarlet Citadel,” a Conan *story* published in 1932, which didn't appear in books until 1946's “Skull-Face and others.” Howard only wrote one Conan novel, the rest are short stories or novellas.
Nevertheless, your point stands. Shame on that guy.
I dunno, I just Googled the quote and that came up first. I was never really into Conan.
Heh, so I guess the quotations around “Yeah, I read it before it was cool” are intended to be tongue-in-cheek? :P
Yes, I was pretending to be the fellow in the forum with the intent to mock him.
OH……MY…….GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You're killing me here!! So freakin funny!!!
Fuse Box #1!! lol
The original script explained very clearly why Connor and Ramirez were immortal on Earth when they were sentenced.
JUDGE : “I sentence you to exile from Zeist. You will be transported to the planet Earth. Each of you to a different time and place. There to be reborn. Once you have grown to the age you are now, time itself will take on a new meaning for you. One year on Earth is like one day on our planet. So on Earth you will be immortal. Furthermore, your memory of this planet and your lives here will be gone. Until the time of the Gathering.
For years, we have sent men to Earth, scattered throughout their history.Men like you who have no place here in Zeist. They will find you. AndTry to kill you. You will fight each other down through the centuries. InOur traditional way with this (he holds up a sword).
The only realize from your Earthly immortality will come if your headis cut off from your body. And when one of you is finally the last of uson Earth, he will claim the Prize. He will have the choice to growing oldand dying on Earth, or returning to Zeist.”
well kinda covers the whole alien thing…but what about thing like the holy ground thing?
Plus in my mind the alien thing is still goofy, I liket it better as being some mystical, magic force on Earth.
Thanks for the explanation. I was wondering that if they were all banished to Earth why the hell the Clancy Brown character was a bad guy? Oh, amnesia. Otherwise think about it, if they were rebels on Ziest fighting for the same cause then why would they bother turning against each other? It'd have to be that either this is a punishment they'd use more than once (which would eliminate the purpose of the gathering, unless there was an inventory they were keeping throughout of how many they banished and were waiting for the right number to have the gathering) or they lost their memory, which would kind of make sense that they would grow up and some of them would flip their wit due to being raised by a savage culture. Still though, the sentencing itself doesn't make much sense. Who would want to go back to where all their enemies are? And it doesn't make sense that they're immortal. “One year on Earth is like a day on our planet.” Wouldn't that, just by the math, make you age very, very slowly? Plus it doesn't explain why they could only die by decapitation, nor explain why Connery knows all about immortality in the first movie if his memory was gone too. It's not like they could google it.It also doesn't justify the many other plot holes Sponnyone points out. Lastly, the actual explanation kindly provided by you (thanks again) is an example of the lazy, easy and not well thought out writing of this creatively bankrupt movie.
In unused scenes, it is explained that the Kurgan from the first film was also a resident of the dreaded planet Zeist, hired by General Katana to kill Connor MacLeod. The final battle between MacLeod and the Kurgan from the 1986 film is shown on a large screen to Zeist bettors, and when the Kurgan fails, Katana sends down the two assassins featured in the final cut of the film to take out MacLeod.
I hope I'm allowed on your arc spoon lol.
I remember i saw this movie with my family as a kid, and kinda liking it.Then years later, i re-watched, and it made NO sense at all.Just another piece of shit.
WHY DO I OWN THIS MOVIE??? WHYYYYYY???
I'm gonna be very unpopular here but I didn't even like the first film! I would go as far to call the first one A FILM though which is more than I can say about this abomination.
They toast TO MAGIC! AAAAAAAH!!!
You know, all these years later, I'm still bothered that a French guy with a rather thick French accent plays a Scottish Highlander while a Scottish guy with a Scottish accent so thick you can paint a fence with it plays an Egyptian masquerading as a Spaniard. The less said about the sequels, the better.
HOW WERE WE SUPPOSE TO KNOW!? WERE ONLY SCIENTISTS NOT FORTUNE TELLERS!”
yep i'm visiting this site regularly.
Where IS your arc?
I am a bit confused does the environmental collapse and subsequent solar shield blockade thingy have any baring on the actual plot after the first 12 mins?
Why did I not notice this sooner…? Team Fortress 2, where the demoman says “THERE CAN BE ONLY OOONE!” … Highlander. I never… huh. I guess it’s just been so long since I’ve seen any of the movies I forgot a whole lot. Watching this will sure be a treat for me :D
Silly.. of course it doesn’t. Any sense of a cohesive plot went out the window after the opening credits rolled.
can i come in the ark :) lol dude very confusing film :L
This is the only Highlander I have never actually seen, and it’s funny how the back story setup in this crappy movie gets completely forgotten about. I wonder what the film makers of the quickening thought of their movie when they came down off their high?
This movie should have never existed. The first one left no hint of a sequel. This movie MADE NO FUCKING SENSE! That is why I consider this and all the other sequels non-canon and redundant.
Well, clearly it is the smartest sci fi film since Blader Runner and we’re all just too dumb to see that.
Great review Spoony!
Ramirez was right in the first film…….THERE SHOULD HAVE ONLY BEEN ONE!!!!!!
im guessing what happened is they got a kids fanfic mixed up with the actual script and this crap came out instead of a guy from the highlands he is an alien from another planet with how you look at it a kickass punishment of living on a more lively planet that is not a crappy deasert wasteland. but this next movie shoudlve been about how this whole immortality gathering thing began and why certain people are immortal.
My twin brother genuinely loves this movie and thinks it’s better than both Highlander 1 and 3. My thought is that everyone is entitled to their opinion. However his opinion is wrong.
The ending of this review was cake! LOL!!!!
“… If you don’t take it out and use, it’ll rust” I’m talking about my penis … aren’t I? xDDDDD!!!! King Spoony, this review is among the best, a pure masterpiece, bravo!!! (And you are right … the is the worst Sci-Fi, no, this is probably the worst movie ever …)
“Smartest Sci-Fi Thriller since Blade Runner”
Seriously, what kind of hallusinogenic substances they were using while filming Highlander II ? Either that, or else the writers (I do mean all for of them) and director were totally lobotomized before even starting with the whole project. I’d really like to know which one of options I’ve mentioned is closer…
I will say, Noah, your commentaries are quite hilarious.
we could combine vampires with highlander and have an all out battle to see who will be the immortal. Granted, the vampires would need chest armor and the highlander would need a head plate. But it would be as “epic” as highlander and makes about as much sense.
They should have realized that hiring Dr. Cox as the CEO for the shield company was a BAD IDEA.
That movie is fucking retarded
Is that an 8-bit rendition of “Goonies ‘R Good Enough” playing in the background towards the beginning?
After some research, yes, it is an 8-bit rendition of “Goonies ‘R Good Enough” from the title screen of the NES game, “The Goonies II.” Yes, “The Goonies II”.
I love the relaxed composure of the news anchor saying “Good morning today’s top story is the ozone layer, it continues to disintegrate taking with it our protection from the sun’s rays.”like it is some minor inconvenience akin to a traffic jam. I can only imagine how he would report a zombie apocalypse. “Good Morning today’s top story zombies continue to decimate the human population reports indicate that over 90% of the human population is now dead or the walking dead. This story and more in the following hour, but first lets go to Paula Dean’s kitchen to learn how to jazz up your turkey for this Thanksgiving. Take it away Paula…. wait a second, Paula stop eating the audience. Paula that is certainly not very professional.”
What the hell? I thought return to house on haunted hill was bad…this is just WORSE.
Oh Sean Connery….what hath you done? wait….gay… oh god….
Wow. I’m surprised someone with all the fu**ed upedness that happened to this promising series that someone hasn’t decided to completely discount EVERYTHING after the first movie and make a new one basing everything on IT and not the cartoon, live action show or other movies, ONLY the first movie.
The problem with that is twofold:
1: They *did* make such a movie. It was called Highlander 3. It was alright, but nothing special.
2: Making sequels to the Highlander movie itself is a priori stupid because “There can be only one.” The movie ended on about as final a note as it is possible to end on. The only way Highlander 3 got around that was by having an immortal “die” in such a way that he kept being dead for a time, but could be resurrected after the end of the first movie.
No, the real question is why is it that nobody has just made a Highlander reboot. Hell, reboots are en vogue now. I wouldn’t be surprised if Lucas said, “I’m rebooting Star Wars.”
I’d be scared shitless, but not surprised.
I’ll be honest, I never saw any of the Highlander movies and that includes the first one, but I know that the only one that gets real love and is considered a classic while I’ve heard enough fans tell me that almost anything else is well “ASSic” Superman Returns ignored two films in 3 and 4 so a retcon or reboot isn’t completely out of the question.
DON’T SAY REBOOT STAR WARS!! You know Lucas will do it. We’ll have Naboo and Jar Jar mentions in the OT and Yoda showing Luke how to use a lightsaber in Empire. The Battle of Hoth will look like the Battle of Geonosis with endless crap flying around. As Christopher Walken would say: “It’s CRAZY!”
For years, we have sent men to Earth, scattered throughout their history.
Men like you who have no place here in Zeist. They will find you. And
Try to kill you. You will fight each other down through the centuries. In
Our traditional way with this (he holds up a sword).
The only realize from your Earthly immortality will come if your head
is cut off from your body. And when one of you is finally the last of us
on Earth, he will claim the Prize. He will have the choice to growing old
and dying on Earth, or returning to Zeist.”
Now that I know the original script the rest of the movie makes 1% more sense.
I just saw Highlander, and now after seeing it I can really understand why you loathe Highlander II. I can agree with you on the fact that this movie, Highlander II, is just dispicable.
If the Prize is the choice to lose your immortality or to return to Zeist, why would humanity fall into darkness if the Kurgan won it?
Because we’d miss him too much to properly function as a society?
Despite the movie’s flaws at least it acknowledged the first movie unlike the rest of the sequels.
What are you talking about? The 3rd and 4th movie heavily reference the 1st. They show lots of scenes and revisit characters and locations.
Holy crap those two rejects were worse than the two bounty hunters from Suburban Commando and not nearly as amusing…not that that’s saying much really.
Should’ve been named “Highlander 2: Electric Zeist-aloo”
Katana isn’t a general, General just happens to be a very popular first name on Zeist.
Interesting tidbit: over here in the Netherlands the movie is ridiculed on an even higher level – Zeist is actually a city here
Ooh, so the movie should be called “Netherlander”.
8:26 You can see the springboard that throws that guy in the air at the bottom of the frame. What tremendous special effects this movie has!
You want to know a worst movie than all the other movies you reviewed,besides those featuring Reb Brown?
THE GOONIES!!! When you,re done with the other review, consider this as a suppository.
A suppository? Ouch. Even for the goonies, that seems a bit harsh. I mean, how would you make the VHS fit?
I like how the music gets all sad when they mention Zeist.
I like how the music at the opera gets all sad when they mention Zeist.
Of course the radiation above the shield is normal! Why not? The ozone is supposed to be gone! That has nothing to do with the amount of radiation! If the sun had become excessively active, that would make SOME sense.
It might have made sense if Kitana wanted to kill McCloud himself. So he has to work around the exile.
He waits until McCloud is the winner (because he’s the leader of the rebels and wouldn’t lose to anyone) then he waits for him to grow old and when he’s on the verge of passing on, sends the flying monkeys to make him immortal again…possibly to start the process over again. Or just piss him off, and then Kitana can go kill him himself…sense I guess Zeistians are default immortals since Kitana was no worse for ware.
Maybe that would have been Kitana’s plan all along with better writing.
Kitana wants to kill the leader of the rebellion and Ramirez…but those priests or the law hampers him. So fine send McCloud and Ramirez to Earth for however long. At least they would be forced to fight each other since there can be only one. Its not like either of them would lose to anyone whose not a main character.
So one of them is the last, and they choose not to go back. Thats fine. Let him live and die…sign of depression or maybe he’s happy. So after waiting for whoever to be on the verge of a natural death, Kitana sends his flying monkeys to restart the process. They fail so he can’t wait anymore so he’s going himself to finally kill McCloud or Ramirez himself.
Although that church scene…if this was the case Kitana should have looked happy that he got under McCloud’s skin. Instead McCloud called bullshit on his plan and now is in position to kill him.
Nice review! Here is what i thought of this movie if anyone wanna know.
“Change? Ya got change? AUGGUGHHGGH OH, C’MON HELP A GUY OUT, UUUAHGHGHAGHH…”
Get this: John C. McGinley claimed, in an interview, that he tried to base his performance off of Orson Welles. To his credit, however, he admitted that this may not have been the best of ideas.
One film to ruin them all.
Huh. So there really CAN be only one!
Wrong movie series… XD
McCloud’s term of office is shorter than William Henry Harrison’s!
There is only one Highlander movie …. dammit I need brain Bleach now sigh
Best viewing of the first one ASU theater back in 93 with all the trench coats and Kurgan wannabes lol
BTW I think the apolagy for 2 was The series at least that was a better retconing of the first movies ending .. I think.
Well, about McLeod figuring out the hoverboard in seconds: he DID just have the quickening from the porcupine guy, and it was his hoverboard. So when the quickening happened, McLeod absorbed all of the guy’s knowledge of the hoverboard and how to use it. Then again, Highlander shouldn’t have to make you think that hard…
How many people thought they would have to see the Madness of Roland face again at the beginning…..I F*CKING DID!
Spoony. I know you said you liked it, but its a movie with cyborg spider nazis; do the highlander anime and if at all possible, do it with sage. Please.
Also. Please make you Amazon wish-list more available, I will gladly buy you more crappy movies
In case anyone is interested, they made a documentary talking about the making of this mess.
It’s interesting listening to the things that screen writer says.
was that real liquor?
I hope so. You need that to get through Highlander 2.
Uhhhh…. Spoony? You showed footage of the original highlander when you were talking about rameriez and mcleod, and uhhhh there was no gathering, it’s just mcleod and that other guy fighting. There was only one other immortal that was in the movie, and mcleod killed him at the beginning of the movie.
Edit. I realize my mistake, I thought you were talking about McLeod in number 2 losing his ability to fight. Now I get it. I feel stupid for insinuating that you were stupid.
As a movie director, Russell Mulcahy is a fantastic Duran Duran music biddeo director.
Spoony. This is my favorite review of yours. It’s so goddamn funny. I watch it at least once a week for many laughs.
Has Conner McLeod’s voice been sounded like this since the first Highlander? I’m sorry Spoony, if you like Conner as a character, but he sounds kind of fiendish to me, or choking on something while he is trying to speak. Especially when he is facing the Insano henchmen.
Ya know what the really messed up part is? That isn’t just some voice. THAT is what Christopher Lambert really sounds like. Ever seen Mortal Kombat?
My question for the guy who called this movie “the smartest sci-fi thriller since Blade Runner”: What’s your fucking game shithead?
you know there was one sliver of hope for highlander in the form of a video game that was supposed to be released on The XBOX 360 and PS3. though i cant find any new updates and news on the game. i hope to god that its being worked on so fans don’t have to be ashamed of being a highland fan. hope it comes out and help redeem the franchise.
Seeing this in the theater when it first came out was a dismal experience. Still, it should have prepared me for Star Wars: Episode One.
Sadly, I’m slow to learn.
Episode one is bacon compared to the pigs feet that is ANY sequel to the first Highlander movie.
OMG! I figured it out! Movies like this are originally RPG campains. This IS a Cyberpunk campaign! A CRAPPY AS HELL one that tries to shoehorn Highlander into Cyberpunk.
I love the windows error message spot. Hilarious!
Two Words: Space Hulu
No matter how many times I watch your highlander review, I never get tired of it! This is a damn masterpiece!
what shilag said ^^
I swear that you mean the original Highlander, and not this piece of cinema excrement.
…… There’s a Highlander anime too. (Pretty sure anyway)
Yes, and it’s a good anime movie. Has nothing to do with the original story of the Highlander, but rocks on its own.
Highlander 2: The Quickening is the smartest sci-fi thriller since Blade Runner xD. I laughed my ass off xD
I’m still trying to figure out if the guy who said that either really loved this movie or really hated Blade Runner.
There should have been only one!
I want to hate General Katana but I just can’t…Michael Ironside is so awesome and can still play a stupid role like this well.
Hey, it’s Princess Irulan.
Oh my god! I didn’t noticed it until you mentioned it. I knew her from somewhere I couldn’t remember. Such waste she being here…
mabeys they shouldn’t have there meetings in the giant space shit in the middle of the dessert
also why the fuck wud you want to back to a place run by the people (who know you personialy)who killed your friends and family and want to kill you?
The first time I watched this movie, I thought I got the wrong DVD by mistake, or that it was some kind of Highlander parody. By the time the reality sunk in that this was in fact Highlander’s sequal I was furious. I couldn’t even watch this movie all at once. Finally it got to the scenes with Sean Connery and it became somewhat tolerable and since then I’ve rewatched Highlander 2 even more times than the first movie. I just find this movie so fascinating for some reason.
You know, I thought about this idea after watching all the highlander reviews back-to-back: You can make a good Highlander sequel, and then I came up with a workable idea for one. Highlander 2 shows Connor getting older, so this naturally brings up the obvious problem of that: What happens to The Prize(TM) when Connor dies?
Skip all the crap about the global shield, and all. Here we go: After centuries of bloodshed, Connor because parts of an international peacekeeping force that brings world leaders together. He and Brenda are married, and being a proper Scotsman, have had kids by this point, one of them being the new protaganist. He/She (I’m not settled on either), grows up as an essentially normal kid in Scotland, learning about history from both Brenda and Connor, as well as getting sword training growing up from dad, who is still in practice, if not as badass as he used to be when he was younger. Of course, they haven’t told the kid about Connor’s rather long past, and while researching the family’s lineage comes across a discrepancy: Russell Nash died at birth to a single mother who died shortly thereafter. Upon further study, he may the same connections that Brenda made in the original, connecting the dots to learn the truth about his father, just before falling to his “death” at the castle ruins where Ramirez died.
See? No continuity issues, no nothing. The kid is born and raised in the highlands of Scotland, keeping the whole Highlander thing appropriate, and Connor’s happiness doesn’t have to be completely undone to establish dramatic tension. He can even use The Prize to discover the other new immortals, and communicate to them the rules. No aliens from Zeist, no immortal that somehow hid from the gathering, nothing. It just picks up with the new generation, and moves forward from there.
You could even CALL it Highlander: New Generations as a cool by-line, tying it into Ramirez’s statement “There are new generations being born and forgotten.” I realize it’s just a basic sketch, but come on, let’s be real here, it’s still gotta be better than the other sequels we got.
I had an idea of my own about this. Like in your concept, Connor and Brenda have kids and a long, happy life together. But when Connor dies, the power he absorbed during his time as an immortal is released back into the world, creating new immortals and starting the game all over again.
Hey… I just thought of something on my rewatch of this. If McCloud can you know access the thoughts and knowledge of every human in existence … how come he doesn’t already know like at the begining of the movie that the shield is no longer nessecary.
Seen this on HBO… again , great review. I loved the first movie, and the Highlander series . well most of them, When I seen this many many years ago I was totally confused. Now after seeing it again. I am still confused. I can see why they wanted to bring Highlander movie sequel, but should of found a diffrent way to do it.
Just wondering if spoony ever covered Highlander the final dimension. I actually just discovered spoony and having grown up in the same generation i laugh my ass off every time i load up a video!
I just noticed all this time later, rewatching this for a fourth or fifth time as background material, that you’re playing the NES rendition of “Goonies R Good Enough” from Goonies II in your opening monologue. It saddens me a bit to know I noticed that.
The Soundtrack to the first one was Oh So Good!
I remember hearing Lambert almost lost a thumb with nimrod#2 on the catwalk because he couldn’t see clearly, apparently he has bad eyesight
He can’t see without his glasses and can’t wear contact lenses. He often acts while basically blind.
You wanna talk about a horribly botched sequel to a great movie? Watch “The Trial of Billy Jack”.
Or “Escape From L.A.”
Or Terminator 2.
Except… that movie was awesome, you mean Terminator 3.
Nope, definitely mean Terminator 2.
Just as guilty as Highlander II is for messing up in terms of being a sequel.
Actually, the Highlander comics retconned the Immortals’ existence to say that they lived on Zeist, and that the Immortals are actually people reborn with the souls of the aliens of Zeist. Insert Lord (Xenu? Zenu?) joke here ____________
I’m not disliking your comment because I disagree with it or find it offensive. I’m disliking it because I hate the fact that the comics did that. Like Mr. Simpson, i’m taking my anger out on you!
wow that guy bitching about the highlander poster and mike stoklasa,really needs to take a chill pill
Why is Spoony asking what The Quickening is, when it was mentioned in the first movie?
I assumed he was pointing out the fact that A) the film’s subtitle seems to be entirely random and unrelated to the narrative, and B) no substantial explanation of how or why the Quickening happens was given in the first one because it was implied to be magic, but if they’re aliens from the future then at least a quasi-scientific explanation is required…yet none is given in either film.
That’s what I got out of it anyway.
Actually, he should be mad at the first movie. The Quickening is given three different definitions in the first film, none of which are very clear. There’s a scene where either Ramirez or Connor is on a mountain, with lightning raging, and they call it the quickening. Then Ramirez tells Connor that the Quickening is that weak feeling he has because Ramirez just walked up, and that it was also the same thing he felt when he first met the Kurgan (so it’s that thing that lets them sense other immortals and sometimes, if the plot demands it, causes a weakness). But it’s also the completely random thing that happens every time an immortal dies, with explosions and shit. I guess all of this can be summed together as the “soul” of an immortal doing it’s thing, but it’s not, and the original movie doesn’t even actually establish the whole “Immortals get stronger and gain knowledge of the other immortals they kill” thing, meaning the “soul”, if that is what the quickening is supposed to be, isn’t even plot relevant.
However, I do think wizzbang has the right idea; okay, this is the sequel, time to explain all the mystical crap that was not ever explained in the first movie, but…nope, nothing. Why does the quickening work on Zeist, where they aren’t immortals? Whatever.
I took from it that Spoony was highlighting the random title drop or word use: “let him feel the Quickening!” *We* know what it means for immortals, but what the hell does it mean for mortal rebels from Zeist? It kinda came off like the rebels were going: “okay Connery, but what the fuck does that mean?” You could assume that it has been brought up previously (off screen) but as far as the audience is concerned it’s just a random word that exists to try and create more connection to the original movie, and we have no basis for understanding what Connery is talking about.
What it means outside of the there-can-be-only-one immortal quest is never explained. It made sense as the term for their connection as immortals and the energy that passes between them when one dies or resonates between them when they are in close proximity, and the deer thing always made it seem like it was an energy/magic and/or their life-force since it allowed them to connect with nature around them. Basically, it heightens the mythical/magical sense of their abilities for the first movie. But outside of the immortal quest, on an entirely different planet, where they are mortal, what the hell *IS* the quickening supposed to be…?! You know?
I only ever seen the first movie. This one and the following movies were so bad I just had to avoid them like the plague.
“How do you butt-fuck and entire series in 12 minutes?”
T2 did it faster then that.
I’m sorry, but I’ve been hearing this a lot from people around the site. What exactly was so bad about T2?
No need to apologize, it’s not your fault T2 has so many problems.
First to answer your question we need to look at why Highlander 2 gets such a bad rep.
As a film in of itself, it’s not that bad. It’s only as it’s a sequel and a sequel that messes up everything set-up previously. It ignores rules, changes characters, etc.
So with all that in mind, let’s look at T2 as a sequel….
1) Nothing dead can use the TDE, a rule explained and shown to be true in the first film. The T-1000 is nothing but dead, it can not use the TDE. Gaping plot hole in the opening minutes means none of the events shown can happen of the film. Do we really need to continue here?
2) Why is there another IDENTICAL T-800 Model-101 when the reason the 800 series was created was to replace the EASY TO SPOT 600 series? If Skynet is aware it’s units are being spotted so created a new machine to avoid this…why would it make multiple units that look IDENTICAL making them easier to spot?
3) Kyle says in the first film he had no idea what this new 800 series looked like…but as just mentioned previously all looked alike and Kyle was sent back by John who himself had a captured and reprogrammed IDENTICAL T-800…but didn’t show or tell Kyle what it looked like to help in his mission to save his Mother and by extension himself in 1984?
4) Kyle also says the 800 series is brand new…T-1000? Now one could say as the T-1000 is a prototype little would have been known about it, good point. However the reprogrammed T-800 adult John sent to protect young John gave up all sorts of into on this new terminator. As The Resistance captured and reprogrammed this T-800 with all this info, they must have also known about it…but just didn’t tell Kyle about this ore advanced unit?
5) The T-800 in the opening does not kill anyone despite clearly still being programmed to kill as proven by the scene later when the T-800 was going to kill the guys that came to help John. Now the bikers in the bar attacked the T-800 and were quite obviously in it’s way, preventing it from carrying on with it’s mission. The same make and model killed for much less than that in the first film…poor gun store clerk.
6) “Nothing else can come through, it’s just him and me” & “Skynet had already lost.”
7) The first film explained that due to the war most records were lost and Skynet knew nothing about Sarah other than her name and the city she was in…but now it has all this extra info for the sequel?
That’s just a handful of problems the film has as a sequel and there are more.
Now of course Highlander 2 just as it’s own film has several problems too as Spoony has pointed out in this review. But still, so does T2…
8) When covering what the T-1000 can and can not do, the T-800 states it can only mimic things of equal size. Then the film goes on to show the T-1000 mimic things NOT of equal size several times. Like, John’s foster Mom, the hospital guard, the hospital floor and even Sarah. Plus it mimics clothing…which is NOT “equal size”.
9) John asking the T-800 nicely not to kill anyone. John does nothing to the programming of the T-800, he does not even explain what “swearing” means to the T-800 and the T-800 has no concept of life and death (a scene in the film even proves this) as it’s just programmed to “terminate”. So the T-800 “swearing” has zero effect on the T-800 itself and should have continued to kill as that is what is was programmed to do. Even more so, just a few mins earlier, we and John learns the T-800 HAS to follow John’s orders…so why didn’t John just ORDER the T-800 not to kill?
10) Carrying on from the following John’s orders rule. At the end John ORDERS the T-800 “not to go” several times and the T-800 just replies with “I’m sorry, I can’t do that.” Errrr, no it HAS to follow John’s ORDERS. It can not suddenly choose what orders to follow and what orders not to follow as it is programmed to follow John’s orders.
11) Near the end the T-1000 stabs Sarah trough the shoulder and asks her to “call to John”, when earlier it is established the T-1000 kills it’s victims and then mimics them…and this is shown to be true within the film. So why didn’t the T-1000 just kill Sarah then and there and mimic her as the film’s rules have explained and then shown to be true of that character?
Again just a few problems the film has as a stand alone film, and again…there are more.
I just find it strange how/why the obvious targets like Highlander 2 get picked on all the time for the problems they have as sequels or even stand alone films. But “popular” films get a free pass even when they have the same/similar problems as films.
I’d love to see someone do an honest riff on T2.
One can still like the film, but also see it’s many, many problems it has as a sequel and even as a film in it’s own right.
A lot of bad sequel often have people saying “didn’t the writer/director even see the first film?”
T2 is a film that can not even use that excuse as it was the same writer/director of both films…and T2 still came out a badly written mess of a film.
[Nothing dead can use the TDE ...]
As a consequence of having an incompatible electromagnetic field. However, if synthetic flesh can cover a T-800 and produce a successful transit, then – It stands to reason, that one of the many objectives of the T-1000 project was to produce a terminator that didn’t require synthetic flesh to time travel, simply an ability to mimic the correct EM field.
Keep in mind, Kyle was explaining the process as he understood it and not as it actually might have been.
The T-1000 was a game-changer, not a contradiction.
[Why is there another IDENTICAL T-800 Model-101]
Presumably because no two Model 101s were ever going to be tasked with infiltrating the same resistance cell. However, there were other models (one was played by Franco Colombo).
There are multiple model 101s for the same reason as there are multiple 2014 Mustangs. Once you have laid the groundwork for production, the most efficient thing to do is to run copies and not reinvent the wheel.
[#3 et al]
Whose to say that John didn’t acquire the T-800 after Kyle had already been time displaced? Kyle assumes the equipment was destroyed, but he has no knowledge if it was or not. But the real question is, what John Connor are you referring to?
You see, you’ve stumbled upon the Terminator paradox (which is not say that T2 is automatically a poor film). The paradox is that John Connor’s origins are from a future that won’t come to pass unless he exists to see that they do. In a sense, he’s his own father.
If you trace it back, you’re left with a few conclusions, the most consistent of which is that one can not actually travel back in time. Should one succeed, one automatically creates an alternate reality to the one which initiated the time travel.
In this manner, one’s own past is preserved while any inconsistencies or paradoxes are simply differences between realities.
Ultimately, there is a prime timeline where Skynet was victorious over humanity, because there was no John Connor to rally humanity and turn the tide. In this timeline Skynet both invents and creates time displacement technology. It must have been forced to use a human captive as a test subject as, no doubt, it must have become aware of the electromagnetic field prerequisite.
Skynet sends Kyle Reece Prime through the equipment. Kyle Reece Prime arrives in 1984a (a new reality created by his very presence) and falls in love with Sarah Connor[a]. Presumably they produce a child – John Connor, who would rise up and destroy Skynet[a]. All the while, Skynet prime would observe no change in its own timeline and perhaps would consider time travel a failure.
When, in reality, it sowed the seeds of human perseverance across nearly infinite deviant timelines.
See, now we have John Connor of reality [a], who will now choose to send Kyle Reece [a] through the time displacement equipment because Skynet [a] wishes to destroy John Connor and rewrite present events by killing Sarah Connor [a] in 1984[a]. It will succeed, but not as it “hopes?”
Kyle Reece [a] is time displaced and creates 1984 [b] The one we’re familiar with. Events transpire as shown in the film, however reality [b] introduces at least one new branching reality – that of the T-1000 and the 2nd Model 101. Reality [c] is that of T2, and the events thereof are those in that film.
You see, T2 can’t contradict T1 nor can they be anything but complimentary to one another. They are parallel variations from the same trunk, much like tree branches.
You seem to hang a lot of your assumptions on the recollections and understanding of an uneducated street urchin turned Army grunt. It’s almost like you’re giving us the gospel from the book of Reece. Accept that Reece wasn’t omniscient or infallible.
[The T-800 in the opening does not kill anyone ...]
No, he just ravages a dozen bikers. Why? Because his objective was to obtain clothing and transportation. The Model 101 from T1 also didn’t kill unless it was in direct service to its mission. Nothing was to be gained by killing those bikers, save for a considerable level of interest from police. A stolen bike and a few guys in the hospital doesn’t exactly raise the same response as MASS MURDER.
[Nothing else can come through ...]
Again, this is the testimony of a man that doesn’t have all the facts and can’t even fathom that he’s not just dealing with time travel but probably also parallel realities.
[but now it has all this extra info for the sequel]
What extra info? Presumably the resistance (namely John Connor) supplemented its innate knowledge with everything the resistance knew.
If you’re talking about the T-1000. It’s not hard to work out when the middle-aged man fighting a war against you was a child. The first thing the T-1000 does after it hits the streets is start collecting intel on John Connor. Police records give an address, the fosters give a photo .. ect. It knew almost next to nothing to begin with, it just efficiently began remedying that tactical weakness. This is consistent with skynet’s level of information and methodology.
[ it can only mimic things of equal size.]
Well it can’t alter its mass, but size is really a matter of perception. That is to say, there’s a reason why cats arch their back when threatened and gorillas pump up their chest. To appear a certain size is not an equal proposition to actually being larger or smaller. Perhaps the T-1000 has some degree of density control. That being said, spreading one’s self out over a floor doesn’t make one larger either (as you claim) it just makes one spread out. The conservation of mass is preserved.
However, in context, the model 101 was illustrating why it (the T-1000) couldn’t imitate a pack of cigarettes (presumably, no tricks could hide that much mass to complete the illusion.)
[John does nothing to the programming of the T-800]
Well, yes he did. Future (or alternate) John programmed the T-800 to obey John Connor, that includes child John Connor. There was an entire scene where this is clearly established.
[so why didn't John just ORDER the T-800 not to kill?]
The T-800 is sophisticated enough to process a request from a commander in a manner equal to or just under an order. That is to say, they are both processed as imperatives.
In my service, if I failed a reasonable request from a commanding officer … it was my ass. It didn’t matter that it wasn’t phrased as an explicit order.
[no it HAS to follow John's ORDERS.]
They flipped the CPU to a more autonomous mode in the garage after escaping with Sarah Connor. As the film progresses, the T-800 begins absorbing more human qualities and slowly asserting more self-determination and awareness. By the end of the film, it developed full autonomy equal to that of a human being.
I mean, did you not even watch the g*d-damned movie?
[ the T-1000 kills it's victims and then mimics them]
It had been damaged by the Liquid Nitrogen and was no longer capable of flawless mimicry. Instead of gambling with a perhaps flawed deception, it tried corrosion first.
Obviously, this is a movie moment. Even if John came running fast enough to interrupt the two the T-1000 would have still killed Sarah and just resumed stalking JC. It’s a sin, but a minor one.
[But "popular" films get a free pass]
I honestly found most of your criticism hack-kneed and biased by an agenda to equate a clearly awful film with the best films of its genre.
T2 doesn’t get riffed, it gets analyzed in a thoughtful manner because the subject and execution are thoughtfully crafted and expertly executed. There’s a reason why university philosophy classes have sighted T2 as worthy of study and not f*cking Highlander 2 and it’s not blase “popularity.”
It is a mountain of merits that has earned T2 its popularity. Highlander II having a complete lack of merit has earned only scorn from the betrayed.
Where is there any mention in T2 that part of the T-1000 project meant it can use the TDE?
See here lies my problem.
The Terminator, while not a perfect film did take time to explain and set the rules.
So if the rules are to have been changed…why was this not covered in the film itself?
Maybe the T-1000 can use the TDE…but it’s not mentioned in the film and that is a failing on the part of the writing.
We can all sit here and make up fan-faction that is not in the film to explain away plot holes, you can do that with ANY film.
Here I’ll even cover the gaping plot hole myself…
Seeing as Sarah listened to Kyle in the first film and saw the police interview tape, she knows the rules. So…
Sarah: “How can that T-1000 use the TDE if nothing dead can be sent?”
T-800: “It gives of an electromagnetic field that fools the TDE into thinking it’s sending living tissue.”
There you go, I just made up something not in the film that could have been covered in seconds…but it’s not in the film so not valid.
As the film stands and using the rules laid down within the universe created.
The T-1000 can not use the TDE.
Kyle was the exposition man for the film, the one that explains the rules. So let’s not try to make out Kyle was “wrong” epically when the first film proves him right. It’s the bad writing of T2 that is at fault here.
The T-1000 is a walking contradiction and plot hole.
I see you missed the reason why the T-800 was created?
Again, Skynet made the T-800 to replace the EASY TO SPOT T-600. So if Skynet is aware it’s machines are being spotted…why would it create multiple units that look identical making them even EASIER TO SPOT?
Also seeing as the T-800 is the machine underneath and the model is the skin. Would it not make much more sense for Skynet to just alter the model.
So it would only ever create one T-800 Model 101, then move onto a Model 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, etc…
It would never need nor want to make another T-800 Model 101.
Again, why would Skynet replace it’s EASY TO SPOT units with other units that are EASIER TO SPOT?
There are no “parallel variations” in the universe within The Terminator, there can not be. It’s one singular timeline. If there are any changes or alterations, then John can never exist.
There is a difference between a paradox (of which I have no problem with) and bad writing.
While the first film does feature a large paradox, it still makes sense within the universe created. Where as T2 is just a badly written mess.
So going back to the T-800 not killing as it would be “murder”.
It’s a machine programmed to MURDER. It has no morales, no judgement, no sense of right and wrong.
Again, it was willing to kill the guys that came to HELP John. The same make and model KILLED the bikers when obtaining clothing in the first film, it MURDERED the gun store owner, it MURDERED Matt who was not even part of it’s mission, it willingly opened fire in a packed night club KILLING others, etc.
But now you are making out it didn’t kill any of the bikers…why? Oh yeah mass murder…which it did previously commit in the last film.
The “extra info” I talk of is how did Skynet know where John Conner was if ALL the info it had was the name Sarah Conner and the city she lived in in 1984?
Also why would it send it’s most advanced unit (T-1000) to a later past time when knowledge of the future would be known by some instead of using this most advanced unit to kill an unaware pre-pregnant mother in 1984?
Skynet is supposed to be this great militaristic thinking AI right? Well it was in the first film, in T2 it has the IQ of Wile E. Coyote.
Again, a police uniform is not equal size, you see the change in size when it morphs between various forms. It mimics things not of equal size several times in the film.
Ergo the “rule” of it can only mimic things of equal size is more bad writing.
It may be able to control it’s mass…but which way? Cos it mimics things both bigger and smaller than it’s own size several times.
How can it mimic something as small as a uniform…but also mimic something as large as a floor?
So it CAN mimic things not of equal size then. Again, bad writing.
I like the way you ignore my points when countering what I’ve written.
While future John had the T-800 reprogrammed (something I already stared), when young John asks the T-800 to “swear not to kill”, it does nothing there to alter it’s program, John does not explain what “swearing” means.
All the T-800 does is parrot/copy John cos John tells it to. It is still programmed to kill.
Again, it’s programming has not changed, “swearing” means nothing to the T-800.
Why you are bringing up your “service” is irrelevant.
You are a human and have your own mind. You are not a pre-programmed machine build and programmed to follow specific programming.
On the subject of it having to follow John’s orders, you bring up the chip scene…a scene NOT in the original cut only in the extended cut. So that scene holds no merit.
But as you did bring it up, let’s talk of that scene…
The switch was flipped to allow the T-800 to “learn”, not for it to ignore pre-programmed orders.
Plus if the T-800 was not learning up to this point…then again going back to it “swearing” and ANYTHING John has “taught” it to this point would have had no effect on the machine as it could not learn.
You’ve just made one of my points even more valid…thanks.
Did you even see the god-damn movie?
The “damage” to the T-1000 is not in the original cut.
Again this is only in the extended cut and in that cut, yes it goes some way of explaining why it didn’t mimic Sarah.
In the original cut, this is not a factor and the T-1000 even does mimic Sarah later anyway.
So again, why didn’t it kill and mimic Sarah instead of doing the pointless “call to John” bit?
T2 is neither “thoughtfully crafted” nor “expertly executed”.
If it was, fans would not need to make crap up to cover the plot holes and inconsistencies.
It’s just a badly written sequel, like many, many other badly written sequels.
But again, it does not get picked on due to it’s popularity. People are VERY forgiving when it’;s something they enjoy.
[Where is there any mention in T2 that part of the T-1000 project meant it can use the TDE?
See here lies my problem.]
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We have these facts; t-800′s covered in synthetic flesh can be time displaced just as well as humans (the synthetic flesh mimics the correct EM field.), Skynet was researching advanced prototypes that surpassed even its previous successes. Out of these prototypes, two would be successfully time displaced; the T-1000 and the Terminatrix. The commonality between the two? They employ Mimetic Poly-alloy.
QED: Mimetic Poly-Alloy must be capable of mimicking the correct EM field due to the facts we’ve observed. The deduction is that Skynet found a completely inorganic manner to achieve time displacement.
It doesn’t matter that it wasn’t explicitly stated. The deduction can be made by any one paying attention to the observed facts and not clinging to the testimony of an uneducated Army grunt.
As kyle knew it, only flesh could go through. But, by his own admission he knew little of the technicality of the process.
[... she knows the rules. So ...]
She knows the rules of a virtually limitless demi-god of a computer’s super-technology as explained by a guy that by his own admission didn’t understand it.
Philosophically, “Why” is always more powerful than “what.”
[So going back to the T-800 not killing as it would be "murder".]
That is your assertion. My counter was that it was tactical decision making and not moral decision making. Murdering an entire bar of bikers would complicate its ultimate mission rather than serve it. Tactically, using only the force required for the immediate goal (clothing, transportation) was in service to greater objective (finding and protecting john connor)
[Kyle was the exposition man for the film]
But that does not automatically confer a quality of infallibility.
[There are no "parallel variations"]
There already are. As presented by the films, Skynet’s rise to consciousness was delayed (an event already alternate to the known timeline) and yet this had no impact on events of established continuity. This is logically impossible, a paradox. Two disparate sequences of events are not likely to produce identical causality in every detail.
[Again, it was willing to kill the guys that came to HELP John.]
In direct service to its primary objective (to protect john connor). The bros presented themselves aggressively towards the Terminator’s charge. John then instructs the terminator to act against them (“grab this guy.”) This escalates the confrontation to a violent altercation the most direct and efficient resolution of which would most serve the Terminator’s primary objective (protect john connor).
Note that the Terminator was happy enough to just stand there until the encounter escalated to violence. Killing the guys with no context of protecting JC from harm would not serve its mission.
[Oh yeah mass murder...which it did previously commit in the last film.]
The night club shoot-up was in direct to service to its primary objective (to kill sarah connor.) Killing the bikers would not have been in direct service to that terminators objective (find and protect John Connor) You seem incapable of distinguishing between tactical judgements and moral judgements and also comprehending context.
[why would it create multiple units that look identical making them even EASIER TO SPOT?]
Asked and answered. Efficiency. You’re talking about a global conflict, you can’t imagine that they may be deployed in such a way that no human would ever encounter two of them?
[a Model 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108,]
Without having specifics on the process involved in creating the flesh there’s no way to know how resource and time intensive this task would be. That being said, there were multiple models. One could assume up to and at least one-hundred-and-one of them. (Including one played by Franco Columbo.)
The reason we see 101 more than once is due to John’s direct preference for that model. It was chosen in T2 both as the model his mother had encountered and the one from his memory of the events of that film. He could have chosen a different model, one would assume. Indeed, in the screenplay and novelization there is a scene where JC goes through racks and racks of terminators until he finds the one he’s looking for, model 101.
[Again, a police uniform is not equal size, you see the change in size
when it morphs between various forms. It mimics things not of equal size
several times in the film.]
I see you still don’t get it. SIZE is arbitrary, MASS is not. It must conserve its mass but within this limitation can cheat any “size” or shape it wishes.
No matter its shape, no matter its apparent size, it will always be the same mass of matter. There’s no reason why it can’t have a void of material hidden from direct view to allow for redistribution of material. Imagine that you could transport your liver (and leave a void) to your hand and reconfigure that hand with the additional material.
[How can it mimic something as small as a uniform ..]
You are creating an incorrect distinction. There was no uniform, it merely altered its surface with the contours and texture of a uniform to facilitate an illusion of a police officer. That uniform was no more distinct from it than it’s face, hair, or eyes. All were frauds, illusions and none actually distinct or different from the others on a fundamental level.
[it MURDERED the gun store owner, it MURDERED Matt who was not even part of it's mission]
Matt would have complicated its mission to kill Sarah Connor (whom it had not located) in service to its mission it removed a potential obstacle.
It murdered the gun store owner in secondary service to its primary objective, (acquire weapons, to facilitate killing sarah connor). It was a sure thing that stealing weapons and ammunition would have lead to police involvement, but killing the clerk would potentially delay that involvement.
[how did Skynet know where John Conner was]
It didn’t, which is exactly why the T-1000 searched police records regarding John Connor.
[Also why would it send it's most advanced unit (T-1000) to a later past time]
Presumably, as a prototype, the T-1000 wasn’t as proven as the battle-tested T-800. It was used as a fail-safe plan should the T-800 fail. More advanced isn’t always an equal proposition to more capable or reliable.
[Why you are bringing up your "service" is irrelevant.]
The relevancy was in direct service to your (albeit poor) point about the nature of requests and orders.
[On the subject of it having to follow John's orders, you bring up the
chip scene...a scene NOT in the original cut only in the extended cut.
So that scene holds no merit.]
That’s rather arbitrary, isn’t it? The intentions of the writer/director have no merit because he was pressured to get the runtime down for theatrical release?
It was a scripted scene, it was a filmed scene, and ultimately included in the director’s cut of the film. “No merit,” seems like self-service instead of a move towards maintaining integrity.
Even so, one can observe as objective fact in the theatrical cut the evolution of the Terminator, the only thing cut was the reason behind it, which ultimately doesn’t change the fact that terminators are “learning computers” capable of achieving self-awareness as observed even in the theatrical cut.
[allow the T-800 to "learn", not for it to ignore pre-programmed orders]
Learning allows you to ignore your pre-programmed “orders” (instincts). Cognition, self-awareness, memory all serve self-determination. It is in this way, that deprived of skynet’s control, the terminator evolves into complete autonomy.
[The "damage" to the T-1000 is not in the original cut.]
Yes it was, it was how John Connor was able to tell his mother from the T-1000. The T-1000 incorrectly reproduced her feet (which were trying to mimic the floor instead)
[why didn't it kill and mimic Sarah]
asked and answered in a way consistent even with the theatrical cut.
[ fans would not need to make crap up to cover the plot holes and inconsistencies.]
Logical deduction, induction, reasoning = crap. Then I suppose both philosophy and science are in big trouble. See, these are tools one uses when one does not have all the facts to still arrive at the truth of an observation or phenomena.
However, employ these tools however you wish, and no amount of them can turn Highlander II into a good movie.
[It's just a badly written sequel]
According to one that has not accurately represented it. If you looked at it more objectively, you may not find it to be quite the criminal you make it out to be in your imagination and agenda.
[not get picked on due to it's popularity.]
A popularity you assert is independent of actual merits. Yet the film remains popular year after year, analysis after analysis.
Very well, independent of merit, explain the enduring popularity of the film. Account of its longevity when films equal to your accusation quickly fade into obscurity, almost never to be revisited.
[People are VERY forgiving when it';s something they enjoy.]
What is it they enjoy that is also independent of actual cinematic merit? What of these things does it share with Highlander II that means they should share equal derision?
People enjoy Terminator 2, people do not enjoy Highlander II. If both are equal in your eyes, account for the disparity.
You seem reasonable, and knowledgeable, but you are getting the rules of writing all wrong. Yes, in real life, we have no choice but to operate by guesses; some of them are very logical and rational, some are not, but they are essentially guesses. Only in certain aspects of science can we really, truly hammer down absolute truth. But this is not how it works in writing, be in movies, TV, books, video games, whatever. In any media, you have exposition; to explain the who, what, where, etc, of the world. In fantasy and sci-fi, you also need to explain the metaphysics, the fakery of the world. You CAN later subvert this info, but you CANNOT just handwave it. That is a plothole. That’s the definition, or one of them anyway. It is objectively bad writing. You can’t introduce Reese as “The guy who is going to explain the metaphysics to you” and then just have him be wrong, unless you actually TELL US THAT. You can’t tell the audience that Skynet had to invent skin-coating in order to send back a machine, and then send back a machine without a skin-coating, unless you EXPLICITELY subvert it. You MUST explain this, or it’s a plothole. Your answer of “obviously they fixed that problem” is supposition; you are inducing things, aka, making things up. It IS a logical conclusion, but it’s bad writing. As Senna says, if we are allowed to do this, then ANY story is “good”, because we can always just say “Obviously one of the immortal’s powers is to resurrect the dead by wishing really hard”. This is exactly the same as your argument; it’s an a posteriori argument with no setup and no narrative support. I’m all for logic, but the problem is that a fictional world isn’t the same as the real world. I know that sounds patronizing, sorry, but in the real world, contradictions are impossible. They can’t exist. They only appear to come about due to idiocy, ignorance, mistakes, etc. But in writing, you can; the laws of the universe are not absolute in them, since they are literally made up by some dude, and thus they need to be explained and then adhered to, or the audience is either confused or making up things to fill in holes. Even in real life, any facts that don’t conform are explained; they aren’t just left in tension with no explanation. In the real world, contradictions are signs that we need to learn more, but in fictions, they are just mistakes, because we CAN’T learn more, we only get what the writer gives us, and he should give us everything we need. Or look at it this way; if you or I have to come up with explanations ourselves, then obviously the writers didn’t do a good enough job, because if they did, we wouldn’t have to.
As for parallel universes…no. This is head-canon, it has no relation to the movie, because it’s not there. When you have to invent or introduce entirely new metaphysical concepts to harmonize a narrative, the narrative is fucked. However, I don’t really hold this against the Terminator series, because paradoxes are inevitable in time travel stories.
As far as why the T-800 was suddenly less violent, well, your answer was really more of the same; you assert that the T-800 was making the most tactical choices given the situation at hand, and your evidence of this is that the T-800 made the choices it made, which are ipso facto the most tactical choices, or else it wouldn’t of made them. You are begging the question. Now, in real life, again, we can speculate, we can assume, because we must account for the facts, but in media, this is merely a contradiction in the writing, the character, and the tone. All we needed was a line explaining that the future-John reprogrammed Arnold to only kill when he must, and not merely whenever it’s most convenient. Otherwise this change is not properly explained.
Similar in the point about obeying order as a machine; unless I’m mistaken, we are not explicitly told that the Terminators learning function allowed them to ALSO ignore direct orders. Does this mean the T-1000 could have just decided to quit his mission and get a job at Taco Bell, if he had learned enough? Nothing indicates this is true, and in fiction, if it didn’t happen “on camera” in some way shape or form, it didn’t happen. You also cannot just assume that the T-800 would process requests the same as commands; the narrative needs to show us this. The fact that YOU do, well, unless you are also living tissue over a metal endoskeleton, I don’t see how that matters. The fact that terminators can’t mimic humans well is a consistent plot point.
I actually agree with most of your other points (including that Highlander 2 sucks), no complaint with them. But you are admitting that this film had numerous gaping holes in it’s narrative by your very act of trying to plug them with, yes, perfectly rational but factually unsupported supposition. I think the movie is still a pretty good popcorn action flick, and it’s mostly fine since the focus is on the cool special effects and the characters’ struggle, but the plot still has all kinds of problems.
[Your answer of "obviously they fixed that problem" is supposition]
It is observation, not supposition.
[ANY story is "good", because we can always just say "Obviously one of the immortal's powers is to resurrect the dead by wishing really hard".]
I have no problem with this power at face value. The problem comes in when its clear that it is employed, not in service to a compelling story, but simply as a way to justify shoehorning in a marquee name.
What makes Highlander II’s subversion of established conventions and elements far more damning than T2′s is not a matter of popularity, but poor motivation and narrative justification informing poor inclusion and execution.
T2 may force you to reconsider what you think you know about the world and its mechanisms (as established in the first film) without explanation or exposition, and perhaps – for you – that’s a nonstarter, but the motivation and execution of the exceptions are in direct service to compelling storytelling. This is where H II fails and it fails completely.
[Even in real life, any facts that don't conform are explained;]
All facts conform to the nature of existence. There are no facts that contradict the truth of things. An incomplete knowledge leads to an imperfect comprehension. But, it is our understanding that is flawed, not nature/existence or the facts that illuminate them. When an observation seemingly contradicts what “we” know, it is an opportunity to more fully complete our knowledge, to refine our comprehension closer to perfection.
However, when you observe a contradiction in fiction the first question is “does it serve the storytelling in a compelling manner? Is the story better for it?”
In Highlander II’s case, in almost every instance, the answer was a resounding “no.” It was a narrative constructed entirely out of contradiction, a film motivated by financial gains and not narrative integrity. It is in this way that it fails, while T2 did not – regardless of absent exposition.
[ ... and he should give us everything we need.]
Then one must never challenge an audience or their preconceptions. (but we both know that many of the most successful films did just that) One should write for the lowest common denominator, and craft films almost entirely out of explanation.
Needs, and wants for that matter, are subjective. Though they can be anticipated to some degree they can not be entirely predicted. One includes just enough explanation to make the story achievable as its ok and even desirable to have some mystery.
Mystery invites an audience to participate in the storytelling through actually THINKING about it. The human mind is innately geared for solving mysteries, that some are better at it than others is no reason to reduce storytelling to exercises in explanation of trivia and minutia.
Challenging an audience, having areas of mystery – these are often what separates a good film from a great film.
As a serious question, did you feel better from a storytelling perspective when George Lucas explained “the force” and how people have it?
[When you have to invent or introduce entirely new metaphysical concepts to harmonize a narrative,]
Absence of exposition is not the same as lacking introduction or inclusion.
[ we are not explicitly told that the Terminators learning function allowed them to ALSO ignore direct orders.]
The learning function allowed skynet to ignore its direct orders. If you buy that premise (the one that makes the entire story possible) then it isn’t a stretch to apply it to other learning computers like the T-800. It is for this very reason that Terminators are switched to “read only” when placed outside of skynet’s direct monitoring and control. That is explicitly stated in the film. It is a collateral conclusion, not an invention.
“It is observation, not supposition.”
No, it’s supposition. Again, in real life, I am forced to accept that, I dunno, this bullet penetrated that wall there, even if I previously thought it was impossible, because I see that it did, and reality is absolute. In a story, however, there’s always another answer, since the rules are NOT absolute, but invented, and that answer is that the writer made a mistake. We “observe” that something happened that we are directly told is impossible; this is a contradiction, the narrative is claiming to having made a four-sided triangle. If you don’t agree, then you are basically saying that as long as someone, anyone, can invent SOME explanation to harmonize it, it’s okay, meaning contradictions and plotholes literally cannot exist.
“T2 may force you to reconsider what you think you know about the world and its mechanisms (as established in the first film) without explanation or exposition, and perhaps – for you – that’s a nonstarter, but the motivation and execution of the exceptions are in direct service to compelling storytelling”
No, it’s not. Nothing was enhanced by having the few rules previously established be ignored for no reason. And let’s consider this; there was really no way to have a sequel to Highlander without problems; the very catchphrase is “There can be only one”, so we can’t have more immortals without something stupid. I’m not excusing Zeist, but something like that was necessary. But in T2, there was no reason to contradict the rules of the first film, when we already know work-arounds exist. Nothing was stopping Skynet from telling the T-1000 to liquefy and go into a nearly-dead human, and then throw the human through the time-portal, where the T-1000 could then exit and take a human form. It’s just lazy.
“Needs, and wants for that matter, are subjective. Though they can be anticipated to some degree they can not be entirely predicted.”
In terms of writing, no, they aren’t. For a story to be well-told, by definition, the plot has to be explained, from beginning to end*. The ending CAN be open to multiple interpretations, that’s fine, because it’s the end, the plot is over, but we need to be able to follow the plot to that point, or else we can’t even have a meaningful conversation about the ending (like anything else, if the terms aren’t even defined, no debate is possible). Whether or not that’s possible in a given circumstance isn’t really debatable; it either is or it isn’t. Either all the events in the narrative are explained and follow an understandable order, or they don’t. Now, yeah, “wants”, like, wanting to know more about what Conner did over his 500 year life, are subjective, but that’s because they are not plot-relevant.
“Mystery invites an audience to participate in the storytelling through actually THINKING about it. The human mind is innately geared for solving mysteries, that some are better at it than others is no reason to reduce storytelling to exercises in explanation of trivia and minutia.”
Okay, I agree with you, but you are conflating two different issues; narrative and themes. You need a concrete, believable foundation first, with subjective interpretation, emotional impact, and mystery on top of it. This is, I’m sure you know, called layering. If we don’t have anything concrete, if the basis of the story is quick-sand, there’s nothing to interpret or think over, it’s just handwaved nonsense. Metaphysics are inherently meaningless if they aren’t consistent. For your example of the force, well, there’s actually a great example; in the original trilogy, the Force was a mystical life-force connecting all things. That’s all we needed to know plot-wise, and it is indeed a mystery to wonder about. But when it was explained, it didn’t just kill the mystery (whether that’s good or bad is really subjective) but it raised all kinds of questions and at least potential plot-holes, if not definite ones. It’s bad precisely because it undermined and shifted the known meta-physics, not just because it was annoying. In T2, there is no mystery about nature or human behavior or free will or anything brought up by having the rules of the time-portal be ignored. There’s no theme in that point; it’s just a technical detail of the world being broken, just because, it’s just dropped, and never spoken of again.
“Absence of exposition is not the same as lacking introduction or inclusion.”
Yeah, it is. Well, not always; if it’s introduced and then NOT explained, it’s an Unfired Chekhov’s Gun, a common writing fallacy. This isn’t really better. But in what I was referring to, actually yeah, there is no introduction or inclusion, at all, of any kind of multi-verse. The necessity of a metaphysical concept in order to harmonize a contradiction is not an “introduction or inclusion” of such a concept. It’s like, if we are explicitly shown that this kind of bullet-proof vest cannot stop a bullet from that gun, and then later that same vest stops the same kind of bullet from that same gun, then it’s a plothole, NOT an introduction to bullet-stopping mind-waves never present elsewhere in the movie.
“The learning function allowed skynet to ignore its direct orders. If you buy that premise (the one that makes the entire story possible) then it isn’t a stretch to apply it to other learning computers like the T-800. It is for this very reason that Terminators are switched to “read only” when placed outside of skynet’s direct monitoring and control”
Okay, I concede this one, you’re right. I’ve never seen the director’s cut, so I don’t think about that scene. That kind of opens up other plotholes, but these posts are long enough now.
Let me start off by saying that I like you, and I hear + comprehend what
you’re saying. I don’t want this to seem like common internet
bickering between two people that can’t find middle-ground.
That being said, I must disagree with some of your fundamental assertions/positions (at the risk of getting pretentious) ;
[(regarding the nature of observation) No, it's supposition. Again, in real life, I am forced to accept that ...]
It is in your mind that the battle for acceptance is fought, yes? I
hate to bring up Descartes, however, “real life” is a subjective notion
forced by bias – informed by what you processes (observation.) Your interpretation of real life is really a subjective construct as is your processing of a fiction.
But we’re not talking about if there is even a reality, just a fictional reality that’s consistent with itself. It all hinges on the amount of authority you put in an uneducated army grunt laying down “the rules” of super-science. I posit that he’s laying down the rules as he understands them (ie, he’s not a narrative cypher).
You disagree (because writing convention demands it, and no other stated reason) – so be it. We agree to disagree.
My final position is that narrative cyphers are unnecessary crutches and Kyle Reese wasn’t an absolute authority on the intricacies of time displacement despite the writing convention that demands he “should” be.
[a four-sided triangle]
A three-sided triangle is actually just as fictional as a four-sided triangle. There is no 2d reality by which to reconcile the two. Geometry, by and large, is a useful fiction – not an objective truth. Don’t worry, I know that THIS wasn’t your point. I just have a background in the philosophy of science and math.
[Nothing was enhanced by having the few rules previously established be ignored]
Kyle Reese !wasn’t! the authority behind time displacement, Skynet was! What you consider rules, I consider the rationalizations of a barely educated army grunt.
Writing convention says he “should be” the cypher by which to get rules, but there’s no insurmountable reason this convention can’t be subverted. Accept the twist that he got the “what” right and the “whys” wrong. Or not, it’s not like reality crumbles if you don’t.
[ T-1000 to liquefy and go into a nearly-dead human]
Dead humans (and nearly dead) don’t have the the same electromagnetic signature as living ones. Metabolism stops (slows), electrical activity stops (slows), Em field drastically diminishes in pattern, frequency, and amplitude. It’s the whole principle behind the EKG.
It’s been debated before, don’t feel bad. Most people consider this first.
[the plot has to be explained]
No, the plot has to be illustrated. This is the difference between literary and visual storytelling. In film, visuals carry as much weight as exhaustive literary exploration. Showing a thing in film is SUPERIOR to talking about it in the same media.
Would you rather be told that Patton stormed the North African front due to insight into armored tactics in a film, OR SHOWN the very same? I’m sorry but, in film, seeing it happen trumps exhaustive exposition. Anybody capable of visual storytelling would say the very same. Exposition is a necessary evil in film, the less it’s used the better off the film is. Even if the audience, case by case, might be left with a minor mystery here or there.
Everything else, well it’s really just how steadfastly one holds (perhaps even dogmatically) writing convention. You express a strict adherence, while I have personally experienced some of the most successful examples faulting convention.
A lot of the argument from the critical side says that Kyle Reese was a Jesus-like cypher by which to write a bible by, and the count is simply that Terminator doesn’t follow the convention of an infallible cypher – and that doesn’t equal poor storytelling.
“My final position is that narrative cyphers are unnecessary crutches and Kyle Reese wasn’t an absolute authority on the intricacies of time displacement despite the writing convention that demands he “should” be.”
That’s fine, but I feel you aren’t fully grasping what your position means in toto, outside of just this particular example. If you aren’t just special pleading for this one case, then you are basically making it so that all fiction writing literally cannot have plotholes or mistakes. I really would like to hear your response to this, because I’ve said it before. How could ANY writing EVER have holes or contradictions if, as you basically state, it’s up to the audience to write parts of the narrative themselves in order to fix the problems? This isn’t a mere “convention”, this is a fundamental foundation of all story-telling because the entire exercise falls apart without it. If we really, truly allowed this, then, just imagine what movies would look like; continuity and coherence wouldn’t exist. Highlander 2 would be equivalent to the Godfather. If that sounds like hyperbole, it’s because you aren’t taking your argument to it’s logical end. Hell, you talk about how exposition needs to be kept to a minimum further down; but no, it could just be eliminated all together. We don’t even need exposition anymore. Just have stuff happen; there’s no need to explain it, it’s up to the audience to figure out how and why and when anything ever happens. I mean, you could literally have characters show up in scenes when they are supposed to be miles away because, well, they must have teleport technology, boom, plothole fixed. A dead guy is in a scene? The main character is also a cleric. A typical human lifted an entire house over his head? Mutant. The police car explodes but the buddy-cops inside survive unscathed? I guess they are also immortals. The hyper-drive is broken but the ship manages to fly 10000 light years overnight? Secondary hyper-drive they didn’t mention.
“Dead humans (and nearly dead) don’t have the the same electromagnetic signature as living ones. Metabolism stops (slows), electrical activity stops (slows), Em field drastically diminishes in pattern, frequency, and amplitude. It’s the whole principle behind the EKG”
Yeah, I know, but how exact the field is isn’t established, so this may or may not be relevant. It’s not like every living thing is identical either. But fine; capture a human, hold him steady while the T-1000 snakes into his intestines, then throw him through; it doesn’t really matter how they subvert it, all that matters is that SOME explanation is given.
“No, the plot has to be illustrated. This is the difference between literary and visual storytelling. In film, visuals carry as much weight as exhaustive literary exploration. Showing a thing in film is SUPERIOR to talking about it in the same media”
When I said “tell” I didn’t mean that literally, but it must be somehow demonstrated or explained. And “illustrating” a plothole doesn’t make it not a plothole.
Okay, two points;
A) I’d like to hear your response to a thing I said before; you said the changes in H2 didn’t benefit the story, but I said the changes in T2 of blatantly ignoring the metaphysics already established also didn’t benefit the story. What’s the difference here? There was no reason they couldn’t of sent back the T-1000 without breaking the rules (or subverting them properly), and there was no reason TO break the rules, nothing was done with this knowledge (like, if an army of liquid-metal covered deathbots came back, because Skynet saw, looking back through history, that his T-1000 did manage to go through, well, okay, there was a point, it was testing a theory). This invalidating old info accomplished nothing except confusion. At least in H2, SOME kind of retcon was necessary to even have a sequel (and bringing back Ramirez was actually set up!), but in T2, there was just no need either in the story itself or from a writing perspective to break this fundamental law (or alleged fundamental law, if you wish).
B) What movie narratives are good by violating the fundamental rules of story-telling? And please don’t say something that’s simply irregular, like Memento or Fight Club, I mean something that is literally impossible to follow without adding in things yourself. And yeah, ALL things have plot-holes or contrivances somewhere, it’s nearly impossible not to, but I don’t know of any movie rife with them that is considered a great story.
Though I find your argument to be fairly well thought out and compelling, dream_asylum’s refutation to most of your points has kinda swayed me to his point of view.
Though I’m now curious as to why you replied twice. Not only that, but why the replies are three days apart from each other and both of them say roughly the same thing, except for some changes in word choice and phrasing.
Also, you upvoted your own replies, and that’s something you just don’t do.
All I can do is think of prometheus as you were saying this.
Guys. I just realized. Highlander 1, Sean Connery is an egyptian whose only role is to advise the white (Scottish) main character. I think this makes him the first and maybe only white actor to play a Magical Negro.
he’s not egyptian, he’s an alien