Beware the sacrilege!!
cool vis spoony :)
Mazes and Monsters is a far out review
yeah the intro… No just no.
the vocals, yuck
I liked it as something different and the harder music fit with the whole satanism explanation in the beginning. Relax because I seriously doubt its permanent.
That opening's not permanent right?
love it when he just decides to kill himself… because.
Seems that the editing between the Spoony scenes and the movie scenes is a bit off.
Either way, I've been hoping for this one for a long time now, and it's as good as advertised. Thanks for another excellent review, Spoony!
I remember that comic you mentioned. The best part was when the the “hero” convinced her to give up her playing D&D, and then caused all of her rulebooks to burst into flames WITH HIS MIND!
I got cut out at the part with the “gem encrusted spikes”, but so far this has my sides splitting open. The opening was just hilarious because it's something we do live in. It's good now that actors aren't labeled as gay though that under-current is always there. I can't believe the paranoia of some people. I wonder what bad encounter they had with RPGs that made them viciously hate and seek to destroy them because I doubt these things stem from merely religious beliefs.
this is the funniest thing i've seen in a looong time. awesome work spoonster. oh and the opening…. bleh. it's cool to try new things but i hope that's not staying.
Penicillin WAS discovered by accident….
The volume editing seemed off when it cut between spoony talking and the film, with a 1-2 second lag.
And it cut off at the ” gem encrusted spikes” bit.
Funny video of what I can actually watch, and I quite like the intro, good to have a change for a while at least.
Typical of peoples inability to adapt to something new…Spoony, the new intro rocks! Way to keep things new and interesting! You the man!
I like the new OP!
Then again, I hate the “old” one.
Its hilariously ironic that he talks about people fearing something that's different and now we're going to get all kinds of people going apeshit because he changed the intro.
Great stuff, loved the Mass Effect 2 reference =)
I'm guessing you don't REALLY hate gays, do you? If so, that's grounds for BETRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYL!!!.
No, he’s just afraid of catching “The Gay”.
In all seriousness, I really, really doubt Spoony has any sort of gay hate, I mean I guy who’s that close to Benzaie must be open minded.
Jack's tattoos! Classic! Also, just an FYI the black hat with the white stripe was on backwards. Didn't know if you were going for that or not. But the dip goes in front.Awesome as usual, Spoony!
Good stuff, Spoony!
Ah, Jack Chick. That name brings back all sorts of unpleasant memories. On top of having to keep my gaming hobby secret from jocks and other ne’er do-wells, I also had to contend with the fact that many of my fellow gamers looked at me with shock and horror when they found out that I was/am a Christian. I’ve lost count of how many times I had to calmly explain that Chicky and his ilk represented a very small handful of vocal followers of a splinter Fundamentalist group (yes, you heard that right: a group so radical that even most avowed fundamentalist sects thought they were too bonkers to be associated with) who hated everyone who didn’t follow their specific sect, especially other Christians (for example, according to the tract writing fruitcake, Catholics and Episcopalians are worshipers of Satan who rule the Earth with the aid of the Illuminati and magic) .
Even to the present day, I still get flack for it and I still have to explain that.
It’s like my Pastor (who is also an avid tabletop gamer) once said: “When the Good Lord was doing character creation, I think he may have botched a few rolls when it came to Mr. Chick and his ilk.”
Oh come on, everyone knows god would use the point buy system of character creation!
After foreseeing munchkins min/maxing their way to total campaign derailment? I think the Creator would have been wary of something like that.
God makes everyones character sheets, he knows not to min max.
…. When Spoony talks about his school D&D experience… Am I the only one imagining people behind him yelling: “He's a witch! Burn him?”
My best guess?: Scapegoating.
Many parents don't want to admit their own part in a problem (real or imagined) they have with their offspring. So they blame something else.
Video games. RPGS. A circle of friends. Diego Maradona.
You get the picture.
Well, too much Maradona can make you go nuts…particularly if you’re English and see the “Hand of God” incident.
no me to thought that to
Wow that nu-metal alterna-rock intro song was horrible. I hope it's not a permanent change.
While I like the new song, I prefer the old one…either one will do me, I watch to see the reviews not the theme.
still think the more extreme nerds are the ones who go through tattoos to celebrate their geekdom. love all the hats btw. i never got into D and D, i was one of those chicks that played Warcraft for kicks. Also some Magic the Gathering.
couldn't help but laugh at how easily they just go to the caverns. when in the hell were Nerds so eager to leave their homes?? i mean shit.
about the whole intro thing. a little something different is cool. i didnt know it was a new version of your theme music til i paid attention to the lyrics. very nice. and yay everybody is STILL making fun of ….the guy who I cant remember his name *odd stare to camera*
A BiG Ric Flair WOOOO!!! I've been really looking forward for this vid. Great Job on the new intro too WOOOO!!!
I don't dislike it because it's new, I dislike it because it's bad. It sounds like every generic modern hard rock song on the radio nowadays.
It's a trap!
Great review Spoony, especially the throwback to Dragon Strike at the end there. Your enraged screaming about your degree in computer science and life in general had me rolling on the floor. Keep up the good work.
Great video, Spoony, nothing like going into the vaults and watching some old piece of fear mongering propaganda whose sole purpose is to instill fear and paranoia into the hearts of parents around the world. Ranks right up there with Reefer Madness; sure that one was just insane beyond belief, but when you remember that Mazes and Monsters was made in the frikin' 80's it some how makes it worse.
Saddly I was unable to get into the D&D crowd growing up; I loved the concept but none of my friends ever did it, and I didn't really know enough about it to start it up myself (though most of my friends would have just gotten bored and hopped onto the N64 or something in the middle of it….they had ADD). One of my nerd regrets in life was not getting into one of those at least once, but eh what are ya gonna do?
PS: Love the new intro theme, you should definitely keep it, forget what some of the others say, they simply fear change.
Wait the intials for the movie are M&M… just eat the movie. Anyway people are just paranoid eses.pecially about things that are different to themselves.
I really loved this review, Spoony. Everything from the long but meaningful steps you took in the beginning to lead us in, to the sweet, new, remixed opening, to the funny jokes used throughout. I really think your stuff's picking up with this review! It feels like it's been a while since your last movie/game review, but you sure made up for lost time!
Oh, and I love the occasional freak-outs you do in your reviews over random stuff… great stuff! The pics you find for the “Please wait” moments are classic as well! Keep up the good work! :D
I love the new opening. I WANT THAT SONG! I checked the website Living Illusions website and it's not listed…damn it!
Great review though.
My parents once got concerned about my D&D hobby. They asked me what was up, and I actually rented this movie to show them just how ridiculous their concerns were.
That's right, this film is so bad that it had the opposite of the intended effect, and convinced my parents that roleplaying games are harmless. No way could such a ludicrous plot have ANY basis in reality.
I thought that was the point. A girl gamer you discovered by accident and it was a “revolutionary” discovery, like with penicillin. I didn't get it as discovering “enter some amazing and complex invention here” by accident, go figure, but… yeah, penicillin.
I must say this is one of your best, Spoony.
People want to find something to blame because they refuse to believe that violence and perversion are a part of a normal human nature.
Spot on mate, absolutely spot on. There’s got to be something to blame otherwise we have to accept that we belong to a species capable of such acts of cruelty and violence.
I agree completely.
Wow, I really liked both the new / covered theme song and the review.
Oh I see, I took it as a reference to Lost.
Great review Spoony. Hail to the geeks.
When my mom found out I was playing D&D she joined the game n made a kick ass Thri Kreen. lol
I remember when I was a kid around 9 years old (I'm 29 now), that our english teacher one day came up with the idea of making groups and have us play D&D, you know, to have a bit of fun practicing it for a day instead of the “boring” classes so we liked it more, as english was the foreign language class for us.
Some kids didn't want to play and were flat out scared about it, because their parents had warned them about that game and how dangerous it was. Really, it was in the list of things parents warned their kids not to do. And I don't even want to know what exactly they told them, seeing that they were in fact scared and eager to comply.
I had never player D&D at that time either, but I know what it was about and I was one of the very few kids in that class trying to explain their class mates they were wrong and how the game worked. They were still scared as hell when we got them to finally play out of sheer peer presure. Sure, they realized it was silly at the end, but it was still very talk about at the school for a while, very surreal.… and the poor teacher was appalled that was the reaction he got with his “making a fun class” idea.
Heh heh heh, I like that comment about fighting over who the best MST3K host was. Whats there to even argue about. Mike fucking wipes the FLOOR with joel.
I know a couple nerds that can actually fight. I watched them kick some serious ass before at a couple parties.
Absolutely fantastic. Every time I deign to doubt Noah, he rebounds and makes a really great video like this. Even if the call backs to old gags were a bit thin, as a whole this was a wonderful piece of work. Top class.
That part about IT work going to India and China almost made me shit myself, awesome review! I also lost my last tech job to India. So I feel your pain.
FF8 drives you crazy and the first person you call is Benzaie Wiiseau?
My GAWD! Spoony's given into the Madness! But he does have a nice hat collection.
Lol, insect on the lens@19:40
Your intro was great and informative, Spoony. Even though I knew most of it it's still fun to hear. Now, you're not much older than me, so I can't believe people were still paranoid about D&D in the fucking 90's. I never really played, but I get the appeal, I mean hell I play Oblivion.
Your meltdown was hilarious too. Funny but also so so very true, the previous generation has fucked over our job security so bad.
Also is it bad I immediately recognized the Bayonetta music? Awesome gaaaame.
Hey, you gonna auction off any of those hats? I got my eye on that fedora :P
I hope the old song comes back…
You know, I was honestly waiting on Admiral Akbar to show up when the dude says “It's a trap!” Great review as always, and the final line was also awesome as well. “I kill people because it's the only way I can get an erection” right when you said that, the room where my relatives are all sitting got to the “awkward” level of quiet and so everyone heard it and my sister looks at me and says “What the hell are you watching?” and I only replied with “my childhood.” I love being a nerd.
I gotta say, best video to date. Everything seemed to mesh really well though I personally would have mentioned that the Great Hall was based on his long lost brother whose disappearance cause great grief and stress for the family. Yeah…I own the movie. I bought it because of the cover art. I bought a whole different bad movie than I thought I was.
I loved this even though I've never played D&D. Benzaie was great and I always love gunblade bits.
The new song itself is okay, I just think people (me included) are going to have a tough time at first watching a Spoony video without the “DUN DUN DUN DUN!” intro.
This is why I hate Disqus with a passion. It absolutely hated IE and anyone who won't sign up because they don't want to have to sign up to 50,000 different things. (Also, Open ID hates me.) Now I have to rewrite three paragraphs of text. Although the first one was only a sentence long.
I would like to push for the old theme version, please.
While I'm not going to defend radicalised rage against RPGs, I would like to add some perspective. According to an old tract I have (not Chick, the guy even puts down Christian rock as Satan's work), the problem wasn't the fantasy RPG itself, but what they saw as actual occultic symbols and concept in the work. Their desire was for D&D to create a completely original fantasy world (not even “lightening it up” or complaing about fantasy magic or monsters) without those symbols. The concern was that while not every gamer was part of a cult or selling their soul to Satan, actual cults would use the game as a recruiting tool, since their symbols and concept were right there and making it an easy sell. (Kind of like recruiting Christians with Voltron or something. Oh, you know that was tried. Sven clearly used the sign of the cross to break Hagar's illusion. You saw it!) So there's that.
Also, just because most World of Warcraft players aren't unbathed basement dwellers surviving only on Moutain Dew during 36 hour marathons until they pass out on the keyboard doesn't mean nimrods like that don't exist. Every stereotype in the world started from somewhere, even if it was a cultural misunderstanding (intended or innocent). There were warning signs that JJ there was going to go off the deep end, and if parents knew to look for it when they weren't turning their son's room into vector graphics without their permission (there are parents that dimwitted–thankfully mine are awesome unlike the ones in this movie) they may be able to help the kid (try bonding with them as a loving parent BEFORE they go bat-guano insane) and find a positive outlet for their issues, even if it turns out to be D&D.
So concerns can be genuine, if not misplaced. If you don't want to be judged too harsly, don't judge them too harshly. Not every critic is Jack Chick or Jack Thompson but if you treat them all that way none of you are going to make any headway on either side of the issue.
The hats almost killed me. Sooo~ funny.A very good review, Spoony! Never heard of this movie before. Neither did I play D&D until the age of 24.
Thank god almost everyone on TGWTG did a Tommy Wiseau joke by now. I'm glad, parodying him will finally be over (Getting quite boring by now.).
The new opening is nice though I find the old one a lot more appropriate for the show.
Spoony… please give Burton a dust :)
Oh. loved the hat bit and the part where Spoony went “off his meds”.
I liked the review, but the 9/11 joke kinda ruined the whole video for me. Apparently, you forgot about the car bomb attack on the WTC in 1993.
Interesting I have actually tried to watch this film earlier this month and fell asleep what a boring film
nice intro remix…
Robbie actually stops wearing weird hats after his character falls to his death; he instead wears really big hair for the rest of the movie.
“The concern was that while not every gamer was part of a cult or selling their soul to Satan, actual cults would use the game as a recruiting tool”
You know the whole Satanic cults/Satanic ritual abuse phenomenon throughout the 80's and 90's was a complete myth, right?
That doesn’t mean they didn’t exist. Just that it wasn’t as bad as it was thought to be. Like pretty much every other “phenomenon” that had parents scarred to let their kids play in the yard because of what they saw on the news.
Also your review is kind of out of order. The phone call takes place after all the interactions with the police, and the subway scenes take place after that.
great version of the title song!
Loved this review and I really like the new opening, awesome. I lost it when you snapped and had to take your meds. I also have to agree with you on one other thing, this movie is the second worst thing to ever happen to the World Trade Center.
It's a trap!!
I love that ending lol!
I can feel what you say Spoony. For many years (and still nowadays), D&D, Gurps and most of the classic table RPGs were considered dangerous and unhealthy here in Brazil. I can still remember, fresh in my mind, my mother forbidding me to play Gurps with my friends because it was a “dangerous” game that would make me into a murderer.
Don't worry Spoony, I'm sure Hanks' performance in the movie doesn't deter my experience with his movies. He'll always be Woody, Forrest Gump, and Robert Langdon to me!
Also, the “It's A Trap” clip from Return of the Jedi should've made this whole video because that's what the characters keep saying!
Damn what a nice intro!
Love the computer science degree rant. Still laughing at it.
Oh, and BTW, the facts i related happened in mid 90's. RPGs were getting strong here and those Evangelic douchebags the religious fanatic scum of brazil, were all predicting the end of times and burning RPG books and Magic decks in their cults. Oh boy…
lol love the ending.
MIKE WAS THE BEST! JOEL IS SMALL TIME!
Oh yeah, I went there.
(trying this again without the link)
So…, according to Spoony's closing credits, Mazes and Monsters is partially the property of “Procter & Gamble Productions”? That's either a really sly, subtle joke on his part, or one huge, heaping chunk of real-life irony,
(referring, of course, to the brew-ha over P&G's “satanic” logo which dogged them for many years.)
Well first I hear for ya greatly. I got my CIS degree in 2000 and then the internet bubble burst and all I got was “you don't have the experience” crud for every place I went with my computer degree. So I greatly feel your pain!
I was never a heavyset RPG player myself. My time was either playing nintendo or storytelling RPs online. The closest I ever got was Final Fantasy (Only got to disc 3 on #8) or The Legend of Zelda. So when I had a friend who was a heavy set Christian who started ranting on how D&D was so evil, I never figured out why. Anything can have its addiction. You just have to pace yourself. One that plays WoW knows that all to well!
But you are right, the media can take any scapegoat and blow it out of proportion. Remember when Columbine happened and the media has pinned Doom to blame just because the two boys made evil levels from the game? Or I bet Linkara knows very well that back in the 60's and 70's when a man (can't remember who) then tried to tell how Comic Books were dark and sending horrible messages to congress.
That man was Fredric Wertham. He was instrumental in getting the Comics Code Authority created. Back in the day, the CCA was really influential, seeing as newsstands wouldn’t carry comics without the seal, and the restrictions almost killed the comic industry.
Then stores showed up that cared more about money than the content of the comics, and the CCA is now just a sad little symbol of nostalgia.
D&D by idiots, for idiots. Truly, this movie is iconic of the paranoid mindset of people who fear that which they do not and refuse to understand. Which is a mindset I've never really understood, incidentally; if something scares you, isn't it in your best interests to try to understand it, not bury it in a load of obviously-false-if-you-comprehend-logic rhetoric? I just don't get why you'd want to scare yourself into borderline insanity instead of taking a well-reasoned approach and coming to some sort of understanding based in reality.
On an unrelated note, I swear Ripper's plot must've been based off of this thing. They make about as much sense as one another, if nothing else.
I laughed my arse off at the 9/11 joke.
You know I have been waiting for this review ever since you first mentioned M&M on Dragon Strike. And it was worth it. The gunblade scene alone had me laughing my ass off, and Tom Hanks trying to be a psychopathic killer and failing was worth the watch. Also judging by those comics you showed by that chic guy, It kinda makes the church out to be a bigger cult than the game he's accusing of satanism. I find that hilarious. Can't wait for the next vid, keep it up yeh great spoony wackjob.
Love how you're trying new stuff, but I don't think that theme song works for you. It's like having Johnny Depp be the Terminator. They're good by themselves, but not together.
Hilarious computer science rant. It'd be easy to take out India. Hell, it's so crowded, you could drop three rocks and it would kill 10 people.
And I had no idea you were a gay satanist. You free this Wednesday? =p
Of cause he’s not free on Wednesday, he’s playing Call of Cthulhu… did you not hear. Thursday however, I’m sure he’d be interested in joining you. Mind if I tag along? ;P
Spoony… The man of many hats :D
I've always wanted to try D&D but a few things stood in my way; the fact that there is a stigma that D&D players are weirdos, the fact that my parents didn't want me to be socially ostracized, and by the time I came of the age of things like that trading card games such as magic the gathering was more popular than D&D
Woah, what's with the new intro theme? Waaay too depressing for this.
I was tricked into buying a DVD of a 1980's TV movie based on the cover. The movie was Licence to Kill (not the 007 movie) and it had Denzel Washington on the cover. Big picture of Denzel in a suit with an image of firefighters putting out a fire that looked like a car bomb exploded in the background. It looked like an interesting drama. Instead, it was a poorly put together after school special that did nothing to convince people of the evils of drunk driving. Denzel wasn't even in the movie until the last 30 minutes and it did not even have a line as funny as “Beware the sacrilege!!”
Good review and Abismo Spoony was my favorite of the headgear
There's something that bothers me:In German translation “The Da Vinci Code” (the original book) was renamed “Sakrileg” what is of course german for “sacrilege” … that makes this movie kind of visionary I guess…
Like the intro theme cover. Sounded like Puddle of Mud doing a cover for “Break Me”. Kinda neat.
Anyway, in your original review you did for this I remember you saying Tom Hanks, to be fair, wasnt that bad as far as acting goes. I've seen this video at the store before. Its one of those “hey check out this movie this famous actor did before they were famous! You'll love it!” and you get it because you dont remember it and its one that your said favorite famous actor was in you dont have. Thats how I got “Copper Mountain” and let me assure you as movies goes, thats much worse.
Anyway, ya Chick tracks were the reason I wasnt allowed to play D&D as a kid. I was lead to believe as a child that D&D was evil and I would be possessed by demons if I played it. Its silly of course but I didnt know anyone that played D&D as a kid so I never really played it to know better. To be fair I did play Magic many years later. I have that magic card you showed in the video still in my collection which is mostly 7th edition or whatever.
Anyway, great video. Makes me nostalgic for… the weird days when it was widely more topical to discuss how evil D&D was. No, I take it back, I dont miss that at all. It was incredibly an weird time though.
Tom Hanks anticipated his bad hairstyle in that movie? XD
angry joe is an illegal alien lmao!!
Not liking the new intro, sounds like really generic rock.
I love the munchkin commenting about the campaign :p. Jewel encrusted spikes, loot the hell out of those!
“We would be playing at a more sophisticated level. I propose we play Mazes and Monsters…” on motorcycles XD
Geesh, if they really wanted to turn people away from D&D they just should had made the D&D movie thirty years earlier.
and I liked the old opening song better, this one started out good but half way through it became way too slow like it was dragging on
Nice. It's weird how anti-D&D hysteria just seems to never go away…
BTW, very appropriate shirt, considering the material you're reviewing.
That clip has been very over used though, so I understand why he wouldn't use it.
NAY FELL DEMON! Joel was best.
when I was younger my Grandmother told me some BS story about my uncle and D&D and made me swear to never play itso up until college I stayed away for fear of not the “evil” my grandmother warned me but pissing her off and getting HER wraththen I found out how bullsh*t the story was and that she didn't even remember telling me it…
so of course I joined my first 2nd Ed campaign almost instantly as a half-elf cleric who ends up having to give her blood to another character because he'd been cursed by her full elven blood uncle
can't tell who came out ahead in all of that lack of knowledge…
they used to bust Magic the Gathering kids for gambling at my high school… personally I thought they should just let them waste their money on buying and trading the cards, meant less cash for pot
I liked the “smell the bodies in the streets” line for 3rd Ed XD
I'd say 3rd, there was a bombing there as well….then again, it's a really shitty movie. Hmmmmm.
Alright, make it a tie between the Bombing attempt and this Movie for second since it is kinda hard to choose
I blame the Nostalgia Critic's Warriors of Virtue video for that!
Awesome review ^^Btw, Spoony… You should shave :P
WoW, sounds like your from some form of backwater country still living like medieval times. Oh wait…
I had it much easier ^^, dident have to hide me and my firends played DnD. Might be cos we played sometimes with freinds/brothers that was 4-5 time older then us. And large portion of our population is murdering childeating satanists… I meen atheists.
Ugh, the new opening song… Do not want! I liked the old one much better. :(
Yeah, I remember that too… fortunately, we had administrators who would actually listen when we said we weren't playing for ante. Most of the time, anyway.
For some reason, they never busted the kids playing dice in the boys' room, though…
yeah… dice is fine but not Magic… weird
as much as I like CCGs I stayed away from Magic, mostly for the money sink aspect. A few friends brought cards to trade with one of the teachers… with all those boxes they must have had a few hundred, each… uh no I’ll trade stuff nobody plays instead XD
Thank you, Spooni-wan, it is nice to see someone refrain from using the usual Star Wars clip after a character says “It's a trap.”
Good review. So, when are you going to publish another of those shitty 70s/80s movies?
The Spoony One shaves when the time is right; he is never late, nor is he ever early.
Dig the Dead Alewives reference. The Dungeons and Dragons sketches are hilarious!
Would've been too obvious to use it.
Great review Spoony, what a completely pointless movie. His sudden switch from normal geek to batshit insane was a little jarring and nonsensical. The real moral is don't play games with Tom Hanks because he's off his rocker, if he lost a game of Mousetrap he'd probably Rube Goldberg the muggers to death.
Too much whining about the theme change…..really people? Is the theme song SO important? I watch for the content, not the fucking intro, it seems some people just need a reason to bitch. Any reason will do, so long as they can bitch about something, relevancy matters not.
Well, the old theme song was really awesome, and it came as a bit of a surprise to hear a cover. And people aren’t really bitching, they just want the old version back.
The Spoony one never shaves. His beard just simply falls off of his face :D
The Johnny Dep-inator…….that movie MUST be made.
Hell yes. I’ll give Uwe Boll a call. >=)
Jack's tattoos? Was that a Mass Effect reference?
I think Spoony would look majestic with a beard.
Bloody good video Spoony. Was well worth the wait. Even though we all know you could have done it sooner if you weren't playing so much video games ;)
Mazes & Monsters it a far-out review! Swords, poisons, spells… hats.
Holy shit! I really hope the phone booth scene wasn't the inspiration for the phone booth scene in American Psycho.
I almost saw this film as a kid. Good thing the video was screwed up. Great review Spoony One.
First of all hilarious review. You did a great job tearing the movie apart and analyzing it. I thought this was one of your best movie reviews in awhile and it held my attention throughout and made me laugh quite a bit. Loved Benzaie's little cameo as well. Also your lamenting your degree was a nice touch and was quite hysterically funny. I also had the card game problem in my school. Some friends and I played Hearts early in the morning and we got in trouble for 'gambling'. Back in Middle School playing Magic with Ante was banned from the School as that was gambling. It was fun!
Now as to my problem with your reviews as a whole I've noticed a slowly growing and quite frankly for me disappointing trend you're tossing in too much politics. Excuse me for being one of the few of your viewers who is proudly Conservative and as such some of your jokes irk me. I can ignore them for the most part but I just shake my head and sigh as you toss more and more out. I'd prefer if you limit the politics a bit in the future. I don't see a need to wear your politics on your sleeve as an entertainer. You're nowhere near where I get overly irritated yet but you're beginning to toe the line and I hope you stifle that bit a little more. None of that is to say I can't appreciate some of the jokes but if you're going to do them balance would be nice and would placate my annoyance a bit. Let me be clear though this isn't to say I don't think you can't do whatever you want. It's your work and you're an artist and I respect that. It's just I also have the ability to stop viewing the works of people I no longer enjoy and I really hope I don't have to do that to your works but if you continue to evolve along this line it seems that sadly you'll be reaching that point sooner or later.
This is a more neutral comment. I can see where a lot of the controversy from the D&D stuff stems. I think RPGs as a whole can be very destructive to those with borderline personalities and those prone to mental illness. I believe the vast majority of RPGs are totally innocent for most people but there are going to be some people who can be driven loopy by them and I think some caution is warranted by fellow players if they think one of their group is acting 'odd'. I can also see where some of the real critics think those games will allow for someone to get interested in non-traditional religions and I agree with them there. I do think it gives them the ability to consider things they wouldn't otherwise…I just don't believe that's destructive in nature.
All in all a great review. Thanks for sharing.
Just to balance the other comments -i love the cover song of the intro.It gives the songs lyrics somehow a different more sinister meaning.
And the video itself was excellent. But saying that is kind of redundant with Spoonys material.
No, it's a Lost reference.
Excellent review, as always.
In my wild and crazy youth, I did some D&D (the basic set, before I got braver) and eventually went to Rifts, a sci-fi-magic RPG. Not sure how many people know about it, but I like it just fine. In any case, I never got any flak about it in high school. I live in a small town, but not a real religious one, so the issue never really came up. Did get a dirty look from a parent of one of my players once, but the guy was a little too enthusiastic about describing the things he killed to his mother.
I think the issue has lessened due to the emergence of World of Warcraft and other MMOs, where avatars abound and have caught mainstream. It's kind of hard to show roleplaying as a corrupting Satanic influence when there's ample evidence that it doesn't. Then again, I don't hang around religious folk, so I can't say if the issue has gone away. Reading a few other comments here, I guess that once a stupid idea takes hold, it's hard to kill off completely. That's why political media is rife with stupid ideas – because it works.
The issue has gone away (for the most part). It was just something that a handful of nuts did and got blown out of proportion. The problem is that it was less a religious issue, and more a “panicked parent issue”. Histories done on the subject (I recommend Rodriguez’s “Moral Panic: Parents and Fear Mongering”) have shown that parents across the board, religious AND irreligious freaked out because they thought their children were getting involved in what the media framed as a degenerate activity (the same way both theistic AND atheistic parents freaked out about video games).
…and trust me, it’s a headache either way.
So this entire movie is just a modern re-interpretation of “Don Quixote”. But even so, all the elements are there: Tom Hanks is a deluded crazy person who prefers his fantasy over reality, the Twin Towers are the windmills, his friends are Sancho Panza – at once trying to keep him grounded in reality and then ultimately reinforcing it out of hope that it will make Hanks find peace or something. All the elements are there, only that this movie is awful and completely fails while Cervantes was a genius, knew how to portray his themes, and was a lot funnier.
(Like the cover of the theme song.)
Boy was I immensely happy to see this video posted today as Mazes and Monsters is one of my favorite of your written reviews. Also, Benzaie's Tommy Wiseau was fucking HILARIOUS! And I loved the Monster A-Go-Go reference
Beware the sacrilege!
Absolutely Hillarious review, having dealt with this crap myself it nice to see it get a sound Thrashing.
Also nice dedication Spoony. Baaawwwwwed a little.
Across the world LARPers look upon this and realised why you can't set this shit up without getting the insurance first.Now I'm a LARPer myself and have been out on set ups similiar to those caves.The monsters were played by LARPers themselves in costume.The party was fighting Reavers (Yes, THOSE reavers, browncoat.) and the end boss was a freaking xenomorph.This was done in an abandoned German gun battery/bunker with little/no lighting.We've yet to get anyone suddenly having AVP 2000 flash backs, screaming “It's Game over man! GAME OVER!!” and generally ending up a vegetable.That said I realise that I'm preaching to the choir.Honestly, I've LARPed with people with psychological problems who were totally drunk/stoned in situations that were freakish (Such as the time a militia patrol got jumped by a guy in a ghillie suit who was a lawn golem, you can't make this shit up) and they were more scared for metagaming reasons.
STOP RIGHT THERE SPOON! I needed to pause this at the beginning just to ask a question. Did you just compare legitimate concern over Al Qaeda, an international terrorist group responsible for the deaths of tens if not hundreds of thousands of innocent people, to paranoia about the gays?
In the end, it’s all paranoia, all the same. Al Qaeda isn’t going to bomb your local community center, and the Iranian guy who runs the corner market isn’t a member.
I think it goes beyond legitimate concern when anyone who looks even a little bit Middle Eastern is looked at with suspicion wherever they go. Hell, a Brazilian student was gunned down in the aftermath of the terror attacks in London for no good reason other than they thought he looked the part.
Spoony didn’t say brown people or Muslims (Then I would’ve agreed with him) he said Al Qaeda specifically.
You really nailed the DM stare, as I have done it on several occations in my games(almost all of them caused by one player). Which reminds me, the night I first DM'ed my own game was the same day Gary Gigax died. Sad day.
You bring up two interesting points.
1) Politics: you're right in that bringing politics into neutral entertainment territory does change the dynamic. It's hard to actually be neutral all the time, however, and considering that the attacks on D&D and roleplaying games were generated from the religious right, Spoony's views were completely warranted. As you said, he has the right to say what he thinks, and you have the right to watch or not watch.
2) The “mental illness” factor: Really? So television, movies, cable news, video games, books, sports, politics, religion, etc. can't do the same thing? You are right in that people should watch out for their friends and family if they start acting “odd”, but that should be a given. The failures of our society occur when “odd” people are alienated. Social settings usually do the opposite (though not always), and RPGs are quite social. I've played them a lot over the years, so I have some insight here. There's no justifcation for singling out RPGs, nor is there evidence that it leads to cultism, occult or otherwise. The people of Jamestown or the Branch Davidians weren't RPGers first.
My seven cents (correcting for inflation and all).
The way some people react to gays, you'd think that they're more dangerous than Al Qaeda, Hitler, and the Legion of Doom all rolled into one.
But unlike Al Qaeda and many islamic countries, we dont kill OUR gays!
Great review, The gunblade scene was great.…………….I'm a gamer (Not a habitual player of table tops, But definately video games, And online RPs.)I'm also a reader of fantasy novels, And a christian. So you might think i have it worse than the average gamer.Honestly, I have it easier than most. Partially cuz i'm from a newer generation, Where gamers are not AS feared as they used to be, And partially becuse my parents where nerds. (My dad the gamer, And succesful computer programmer, My mom the book reader.) So being a multigenre geek has been easier on me than most people.Though due to my sise, And constant serious look, Combined by my clothing attitude i get mistaken for a gangster….
If someone takes a game so goddamn seriously that he thinks he is a holy man who goes around stabbing monster… He shouldn't touch a game with a 50 meter stick.
I'm politically Conservative as well, and I found nothing in this review that was offensive or even opposed my views… not sure what exactly “irked” you.
Unless you're talking about the Ann Coulter jab… yea that was a bit tacked on. Should have just kept it at Stephanie Meyer.
From one Conservative gamer to another, you should be used to it by now and just let it roll off. Unlike most liberals we should be able to take a hit without crying.
The only political hints that could be gleaned from this is that Spoony probably supports gay rights and thinks nationalism goes too far in USA. If this is too political for you then perhaps you should fuck off, I guarentee no love will be lost if a conservative gay hating nationalist leaves the site. There would be much rejoicing.
There's a reason the vast majority of people on this site, TGWTG and the internet in general are liberal minded, that's because it's the mark of an intelligent reasonable person who doesn't hold bigotted hateful beliefs. If you don't like this, perhaps you shouldn't use the internet because us dirty left wing libral commie pansies have a large presence here and you'll likely become rather lonely if you parade your out-dated politics around like so. That said you're clearly a moron anyway as you think RPG's are destructive to people with borderline personality disorders… you mean more so than TV, books, music or video games? Yeah, that makes sense, sure….
I think I speak for the vast majority of people when I say, shut up, you're making yourself look stupid.
Also, I do love how people blame it on games when idiots go all crazy on games and tv… IF they were the cause we'd all be out there guns blazing.
mmmm, you are most definitely my favorite gay satanist, spoonyboy ;Dfeel free to call me if you need actors for spooning with spoony 3!
I agree with M_Appel. :) But seriously, this was hilarious. Love the Benzaie cameo. Fantastic review as always
You, my kind sir, are a GOD...And I don't mean that as in any weird way.
I've built an altar to your honor and I hope I someday will get a simple hair from your head.. To worship.. And lick…
Huh… I'm entering my third year for my Computer Scioence degree… should I start panicking now?
No, you do not need to start panicing, save that for a real situation, what you need to do is run in a circle for 10 hours screaming “WHY?! WHY?! WHY?!”
This is truly just astounding. One of the most hilarious yet extremely saddening examples of how people completely misplace blame.
P.S. Not a big fan of the new intro song. The video is fine but the song is just.. bleh.
Love the remix of your theme song (well song you use as a theme song, but anyways…)Dungeon & Dragons is fun…well, I played for a year but after the breakup with me then bf I quit because I didn’t know of any other group (and I sucked and needed constant help but loved it anywaysO.o).WTF? Hiding in secret playing DnDO.OHarry Potter shows friendship, sticking together through evil, and to be a good guy. I’ve reread the books (read almost all but one at least twice, which I am doing now) and I don’t worship the Devil or have any interest to do black magic.Me forementioned former bf was always trying to get the people in his DnD circle (yes, he was the Dungeon Master) to play that game. But he always ended up failing.So, Spoony, you got a computer science degree (or w/e)? At least you AIMED to get a useful degree. I went for an English Degree.I was depressed before I played DnD (I have Clinical Depression) and playing DnD NEVER made me feel suicidal. In fact, it made me feel better because of all the wacky stuff that went on during it.Love the nerd moments here. Basically saying even to a person who plays DnD it doesn’t make sense.“I ran out of hats.” XDYeah, but in Shutter Island things were more controlled than this would turn out to be.Spoony, there is a name for your problem. Unfortunately I forgot it. But it’s the same problem that the Zodiac Killer had (read Greysomething’s book about him and then saw the movie).
Spoonyboy… Wait a minute, M_Appel? the M stands for Maximillion doesn't it? You're Pegasus! Run Spoony, he's gonna use a spell card to turn you into a toon and then probably make you watch Spice World or something else horribly camp!
I hope your girlfriend gets mad at you for the joke at the end.
“You mean I don't turn you on? (when I'm alive) ;o;”
I like the lighter tone of the original theme song, but the remix definitely works if you need to do a badass video.
Great video! I love the new theme song. And as a gamer it's embarrassing to see, and hear, that people still succumb to this idiotic conclusion that entertainment kills people, and/or fucks up the minds of our youth. If one feels the need to complain on how society is evil, and use a scape goat as a means to display that point, then look no further than LARPing. Now that is something worth looking into and investigating – disturbing to say the least.
Is it me Or Dose the Kids Room that redecorated into a Hosptal does the floor remind u of Portal 2 trailers?
Nice meltdown. COME ON POOKIE LET'S BURN THIS MOTHER FUCKER DOWN!
Jack's tattoos… Mass Effect? I think so. Dose Jack on Lost even have tattoos? My bet is Mass Effect. Personally I think her tattoos are just like when people get tons of random tattoos, whatever they feel at the moment OR a map. OOOOooo think about that one :p
Very funny review Spoony. I had never even heard of this movie before you mentioned it in an earlier video, which left me curious to it and in the back of my mind I hoped you'd review it eventually. I guess blaming social issues on the easiest cause is just human nature, mostly because mentally humans are lazy bastards who can't be bothered to give deeper thought to anything.
Though I won't be too hard on Tom Hanks, this was early in his career so most likely he saw this as a test of his acting skill, what with playing an insane person and all. I doubt he supported the message of the film.
Also, I don't care what others say, I like the new theme song. A little change is good now and then, helps keep things fresh.
The Enrichment Center is committed to the well being of all participants. Cake and grief counseling will be available at the conclusion of the test. Thank you for helping us help you help us all.
My sister went to ASU
One thing I like about the new intro is showing many of Spoony's various characters and alter egos. Long live Gandalf with automatic weapons!
D&D will turn players into real life killer. If you don't believe me just watch Mazes & Monsters. Tom Hank's character kill someone in the movie.
Only stupid parenting group who know next to nothing believe that a board game will influence players to kill in real life.
Great review Spoony!
I personally think they blame games and tv because they don’t want to admit their son was just nuts.
yeah, I believe Slveria is correct in what Spoony was getting at
That new version of your theme is just shit. Sorry, but the original didn't sound like some same-old metalcore bullshit. Now almost everyone on TGWTG has some shitty metalcore/nu metal theme.
Yes. You should. And switch to Electrical Engineering the next chance you get.
D&D doesn't get out of control? Five words:
1. We2. were3. fighting4. like5. MEN!!!
@Daniel GilfillanIt's more a combination of different jabs Spoony has been making recently. I'm pretty thick-skinned about it as I commonly read fantasy which is very liberal in tone with only minimal gagging it's just that I don't want to have to do the same for an entertainer that I quite enjoy. All that statement was intended to do was hopefully throw up a minor politely given red flag for him that some might not appreciate his tone and he should be contemplative of the diversity of his fans in general. I told this to the Cinema Snob as well and his response wasn't exactly palatable or polite so I no longer follow him I hope the same isn't needed in regards to Spoony, though Spoony has never been too overtly political so perhaps I'm just over-reacting here a bit.
@brodkil1. See I don't think all of the attacks come purely from the religious right on gaming issues. A lot of them come from the left as well. Who were the ones pushing the 'V-Chips?' Who were the ones who attempted to ban sales of video games to minors even ones not rated above their age group in my home state? Who were the ones who attempted to close comic book stores because hanging out there was negative to our development as citizens? Not the religious right. You're right though a lot of criticism goes from the fringe in that direction but by no means is that the only place our rights our threatened by bigots who want a nanny-state. Sure it's hard to be an entertainer and be politically neutral I get that. I also guess it's quite hard for you to make cultural jokes like Spoony does so well without throwing in politics on occasion especially with this movie being political. I just wish an effort had been made to make fun of both sides on this not just one.
2. Oh I agree all of those can factor in to causing people who are pre-disposed to have problems to have issues. They could just as easily fall into traps and cause them hurt. I'm just saying RPGs can do it as well that's all. I have no problem with RPGs for the vast vast majority of individuals but like anything there is people that can have problems with them and I just think it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. Obviously the portrayal in this movie and most literature is ludicrous and play shouldn't be restricted or anything, it's just that I can see it causing a extremely small minority issues and totally discounting it as a possibility isn't wise.
I do however disagree with you on the religious connotations. I think it can cause people to examine their own religious belief system and consider their lives. I mean thats the point of role-playing is it not? To put yourself in another persons shoes. It can make you evaluate your own faith and value system when compared to your character I mean that's what you're doing getting into a character who may act or not act at all like your own personality and values. This itself makes you consider things you may not otherwise. I'm not saying that this is destructive at all, far from it in fact I think its extremely healthy activity in that vein. It also allows people to try on aspects of a alternative faith in a setting where most people will likely be very progressive about that sort of thing and this provides a wonderful support group for that exploration. Again not saying its negative but I strongly disagree with you if you don't think it at least causes contemplation of alternative religious practices. I'm not saying you're going to go join a cult because you played D&D but I am saying it makes one more contemplative about the thought of religion and morality as a whole depending on how much thought one puts into the character they are playing in some cases. Which let me say again I think is a great thing, but I can see why some churches consider that a huge threat because it could be. Not making people into 'baby-sacrificing satanists' but making them consider things.
Took me awhile to find the posting again. Lots more comments since yesterday.
1) The attacks on RPGs is definitely a right wing issue. You can’t sidestep it by saying the left causes related incidents (and I’d contest the culprits behind some of those examples you cited, or your nanny state comment, but this thread is difficult enough to get to). This topic was about RPGs, and the facts are that the religious right attacked them. The left is guilty of its own sins, but this isn’t one of them.
As for political balance… I don’t know how you’d do it. I suppose if Spoony was a general humorist that went after human behavior in general, that might be possible. Certaintly all political sides have their share of fair targets. Jon Stewart pulls it off pretty well, but we can’t all be Jon Stewart (and he’s ultimately a lefty, like me). Personally, I’d be happy to eliminate political parties and change the dynamics of the country, but that’s not going to happen any time soon (and I suspect our lovely country will collapse first before it happens, in fact).
2) I think I get you here. RPGs can cause people to question faith, you say. Possible. Didn’t happen with me, though. College was what made me question my faith. But, again, lots of things can make you question your faith. I believe that questioning one’s faith tends to occur more when you’re outside your usual stomping grounds and seeing other cultures and other philosophies in action. RPGs simply didn’t have any effect on me because I considered it fantasy territory. Unless you have a personal anecdote to bring to the table, I’m curious on where you get your assertions.
Nice to see a lot of work went into this one. The new intro is alright, but I preferred the irresponsibles Break Me (:
Also, Benzaie as Tommy Wiseau was hilarious!
One of your best yet!
The only evil I've found in RPG's is the rules…'cos I'm dyscalculic. I “get” the rules, but I can't really use them in any planned strategical sense.
Joel was great…but Mike was better.
This review was worth the wait. Sadly, that really IS all there is to the movie; check out the imdb page and wikipedia if you don’t believe it.Oh, and the opening remix?MADE OF WIN.That is all. :)
I just heard this line… “It's possibly to love you without making love to you.”
I prefer to call that foreplay.
I am sorry that those ignorant t£$ts made your life hell, I get annoyed by those holier than thou twerps (and I am christian.)
Anyway, the movie looks really goofy and even as someone with very little RPGing experience I am cringing at the inaccuracies. Great review as ever spoony
For crap's sake, people, the song version is probably only a one time thing. Like when the AVGN has remixes for his opening once in a while?
The 2002 Flashback was nice- as long as the irony was intended:First you bitch about the movie being set in 1982 and a guy bringing a 1987 wine to the partyand a bit later you have Benzai do an Wiseau-immitation a year BEFORE “The Room” hit the world.
Nice review – especially as i was beginning to fear that your “wrestle wrestle” show was starting to affect your release frequency for good ol' experiment-reviews
keep it up
I remember watching this movie, or one very similar to it. There was a part at the end where the Tom Hanks character was dressed in cleric robes but was in an asylum being visited by the DM of the game, but before that he meets with the guys mother and she forgives him for her son having to be recommitted. Turned out the guy had a mental breakdown before brought on by the game but got better, then the family kept it secret and sent him to college where he ended up joining another group and relapsed. It might be the same movie as this one, only a different version, directors cut maybe?
I like the new intro into the show, it was something different. I am wondering if it will be a seasonal thing now, a new intro for each season of the Spoony Experiment Granted I'm not sure which season you would call this since you have a number of shows and the show count for seasons usually vary depending on the shows.
“Oh, that's brilliant, reinforce his violent delusions; and it worked so well in Shutter Island.”
Um, I think you're forgetting that in Shutter Island, the whole role-playing exercise snapped him out of his fantasy for good. Sure, he pretended to regress because he wanted to get lobotomized so he'd never have to live with the guilt ever again, but it worked nonetheless.
WARNING: The preceding comment contained spoilers and should not have been viewed by those wishing to see the movie.
After watching this, I'm looking forward to a review of that atrocious Dungeons and Dragons movie.
The ending stinger had me in stitches, by the way =)
Dude, I was totally in Drama club, and still play D&D on Saturdays, I had no idea I was a gay satanist…damn.
Also, I love the remixed theme song
I never played Dungeons And Dragons, still i kinda could relate to some of this, i played in metal bands in school and the word around the court was that we were sacrificing goats and had rituals in the forest. It still cracks me up to this day!
One thing crossed my mind during this video though, stereotypes and writers elaborating on subjects they have no knowledge sadly to common.Take two current series for example, NCIS and Criminal Minds, both feature two alternative-goth computer girls, computer software that isn't even close to existing. Talk and Jargon that feels wrong. I mean no body talks like that.
The stupid part is this could easly been avoided by writers doing simple things like trying out photoshop. I mean, if i had been recruited to be a part of a team of writers over a long time, i would definitly do some research on the subjects the show was about.
Kinda pisses me off
I am a fan of NCIS, but it is pretty obvious that a lot of the time they have NO IDEA what they’re talking about, and not just on technology. Well, if you look past that you have… poorly written and structured cases. So what I like about the show is… it’s a guilty pleasure.
Great review Spoony! I loved the sketch with you, Benzaie, and the blood-spattered gunblade!
The “Break Me” remix was… depressing. It was a good effort, but just not very enjoyable.
Anyway, looking forward to more reviews!
no, it means some random final fantasy fanboy must die before lady scarlett gets spooned… which will make spoony even happier
New remix of the theme song is pretty cool but I hope it doesn't become the standard
I remember seeing this when I was little, it made my mom even more paranoid about D&D. Then again she was a batshit insane Christian who thought the ninja turtles were evil too.
Wow, this is why spoony is the king. Hilarious and nicely made points against the movie and the anti-MTG vibe that was going on. Shit we used to play the game in Boy Scouts and my mom still made me sell all my MTG cards (4th through Urza's) and made my dad sell his first AD&D manuals which btw one of them was the recalled Monster Manual because it had copyrighted characters in it….bah makes me want to pull my hair out.
WTF. benzai has PS3 games in 2002?! lol
Must’ve gone to the same future store where Tom Hanks got his 1987 vintage.
Excellent review once again.
Spooneys theological views revealed have been ^_^
Hm too bad you didn't go to my high school. The administration let my friends and me start a roleplaying club our Junior year. And it was a Catholic school too, btw ;)
Love the review. That was one of my fav text reviews you've done so it was nice to see a video review for it. Loved the hat gag. lol
It's funny when I was younger my mom was all nuts about D&D, as a Kid I made a lot of games based off of other games, and I made a simple RPG to play with my brother and she took it the moment I said anything of it being like D&D.
But now, she completely fine with me running a campaign with friends and has even help my brother get a book and a few supplies.
Although this movie does remind me of the third futurama movie, Bender's Game, well I think they took things like this as inspiration for what happened in the movie.
Really awesome review. Definitely one of your top five. I especially liked the joke at the end. I also enjoyed the jabs you took at the religious right and Ann Coulter.
interesting new version of the theme. It doesn't feel spoony though. Thank you for this video, as one who was also percicuted for being a D&D nerd this finally needed to be said.
Ah yes getting erections from homocide, nothing really better to do during the summer.
NOOOOOOO!!!!! Spoony why would you change the opening!?! I loved the old one! It always made me so happy and excited to watch your show! Something I could dance to and get pumped to see what you'll bash next! But this, this just made me sad and dead on the inside D; Hell, it took me half the opening to realize it was a remake of the original opening and that made me sadder TT_TT Other than that I couldn't help but love this. I consider myself the nerdiest girl in my school and I get a ton of odd looks for it XD Keep it up! I'd just love for the old opening though!
hey spoony love the review. i also love your mythbusters t-shirt lol.
Linkara broke the continuity alarm again didn't he?
I think its broken because these idiots broke the timeline and drank a drink from the future,
“Brody, my kids were in there too!”
“My kids were on that beach too!” Sorry, I don’t want to be that guy but I hate seeing misquotes. I know, I’m an asshat.
What, no love for Dave Arneson in the dedication? His importance to gaming was just as important, and his passing was just as saddening.
Oh Mazes and Monsters! I think I saw this when I was like 6 or 7 and it might be the single reason I became interested in D&D, which at this very moment my group is getting ready for our Sunday game.
Spoony your review was perfect! Good work and I'm happy… Satan is pleased!
It's a LOST reference. Jack does have tattoos, in fact, a whole flashback episode was dedicated to how he got them and what they meant.
Thanks Spoony! Much appreciated!
ummm not sure if anyone else has said this but…….. pennecillin was discovered by accident….oops sorry my inner uber nerd took over for a second there…….phew got rid of him for now…I hope…anyways FIRKIN AWESOME REVIEW!!!! love the dodgy echo effects and I think Tom needs to lay off the acid..
Yes, Jack on Lost has tattoos. In fact, they did an entire episode devoted to flashbacks explaining why he got the tattoos and what they mean, prominently featuring Bai Ling as his never-before-or-since-mentioned love interest. It was…, let's just say it was not the most well recieved Lost episode.
I remember that paranoia about D&D back in the 80s. My friends mom was out of her mind when it came to D&D. It was odd because she didnt go to church or anything, but the second anyone mentioned D&D she started ranting that it's the work of satan, and if we play it we'll be sucked into a never-ending life of demon worship, human sacrifice, blood orgies, and somehow street gang violence was caused by D&D too, in her mind. I thought she was weird back when i was a kid….but thinking about it now she was a dangerous lunatic! She even printed off some sort of 80 page manifesto which detailed all the dangers of D&D and attempted to force us to read it all.
Of course, this just made us actually want to play the game, we had no interest in it before her weird shit, but she made it sound pretty awesome. When we finally did play the game though, we were sorely disappointed. I'm kind of a geek, but to this day i still think D&D is really lame.
New theme sucks :P
Otherwise, pretty good review. I read the text version a long time ago and it's nice to see it in video form.
Hey it's Miles's police hat thing! :D
Uh… Nerd Pride? LOL. Awesome intro, by the way.
Another “The Room” quote. lol XD
*After watching to the end”
Ohh~..Wait…you what!? O_O!?
Heh, that look on the DM's face when he jumped in the pit reminds me of when I was playing the Star Wars RPG… You haven't lived till you've gotten hammered then befriended an unconscious Wampa, brought him back to your ship as a pet, and started saying “…and I'll love him, and hug him, and call him George.” Ah… I really gotta get in a new pen & paper RPG group.
Help me out everyone. I know I have seen a “pardue” reference in some other media, but I can't rmemeber where. It is driving me crazy
I was subjected to this movie by my mom because she felt games like final fantasy 7 and legend of zelda majora's mask were evil and brainwashing me. personally i've never found anything wrong with d&d or any other rpgs. i totally got everything spoony was saying
I know what you mean Spoony, I can only get an erection that way too!
Gay satanists aren't all that different from straight satanists. They do have better parties however.
Ieayy…can't say as I care for the new opening…but I suppose variety is the spice of life.
As a DM I've made that face all… too… often…
I think spoony got some things off his chest with this review
I can never watch Forest Gump again NOOOO
Flamesield on!Sorry to say this, but in general, US is a racist nation. It may hurt and sound like flaming statement, but it is true.Lets go back to the 13 founding colonies, which is the seed of us. Each colony was so strict (racist) on religion, costumes, racial neighborhoods and so on, that unagreeing led (which happened) to banishment. Founding colonies were so untolerant to differences that the US was formed with “towns” (as Chinatowns, Irishtowns, etc). Racially segregated towns persist and shape the US SOCIETY STILL.Later on, there was the Civil War, which had as one of the top priorities the abolishment of slavery (in this case a very strong form of racism). Even though there isn't slavery and there is a black president (IN B4 Obama as counter-argument), southern states keep this vision of pride to the south and heck with N*GGERS!!! (I´m totally ok with afroamericans plz dont hate me!!!)-Recently, hate towards any Middle-eastern/terrorist and hunt illegals in the border show new ways of selling “acceptable racism”. Middle-easterns, though proven they have no nuclear weaponry and only an extremist cell made an attack (9/11, which is debated with completely valid arguments to be an inside job), are seen as evil people whose only attempts are to smash the American Way of Life, have become a new enemy (racism anyone). And illegal aliens (any Latin American) are hunted in the border and national troops are sent to protect the sovereignty of the US (really??? a bunch of illegal men seeking a job, that just walked through the desert with no guns and just a gallon of water are national emergency???)….Point is, as a country, the US isSTILL very intolerant to anything, and apparently seeks forms to hate, which leads to various forms of racism. I do not mean in any way that EVERY american is a racist MOFO, but as a majority and countrywise, americans are really intolerant and racist.
I think you meant to say ignorant asshat on!
Obama is not black. His mother is white. If you have a white mother you are not black. His father is black. When you have a mother of one race and a father from another race you are bi-racial. To call him black is to deny his white mom which is racist. Even worse is people calling Tiger Woods black. The man isn’t even half-black. He is 25% black, 50% asian, 25% spilt white and native american.
Also the reason why there is no longer slavery or forced segregation is because other white people thought it was horrible and made laws to change it. Whites are 70% of the US population, if we wanted to we could still oppress the other 30% of the population. We don’t do that because we grew up and learned that’s bs. Also you need to read up on the Civil War other than what government schools teach you. Example the slaves came from black Africans for trade and profit.
Spoony I think thats what the blue pills are for. Morpheus is handing them out I hear.
Hoorah for Jonathon Coulton in the crazy pill break!
Fucking brilliant, Spoony! This was some of your best snark ever!
I thought for one brief second at the end, you were going to splice in Admiral Akbar to declare, “IT'S A TRAP!!”
I I really liked this review, thanks Spoony.
I've just got to throw in my support for this version of the theme in the hopes it gets used again.
And, of course, beware the sacrilege!
Definitely liked your old theme song better, Spoony It was light, fast-paced, and matched the montage better..
I like the other intro better. This review was great as always. I play D&D too and he's so right about what he said. I recommend 3rd edition or 3.5 to anyone.
Pathfinder or 3.75 as some people have called it is awesome.
Never stop making videos that was great! So many good jokes and the hat gag was really funny as well.
I like the new intro, but I think the pace of the song remix doesn't match your high energy style as well as the original. Beyond that, excellent video!
You act as if intolerance, ignorance, and xenophobia are either exclusive to or the most prominent identifying feature of the US.
Majora's Mask IS evil! With the black fairy Tael always haging with the Skull Kid, TEH DEVIL?! And the moon is a Symbol of TEH GAY inflicting our society!No wonder it is my favorite game of all time!
!!actor wannabe!!!! what's happened, everything has gone.(the fun, the cleverness, the creativity, the uniqueness, the style, the, comedy, the ability to appeal internationally, the site viewers will accept anything they see. Spooney the celebra-tit.
You found no humour in this at all? You’re dead inside man…you’re a monster!
I saw part of this movie on TV once…I gave up after 20 minutes. It's good to know I didn't miss anything.
I've been waiting for this… Another Spoony movie review! Fantastic! The Beyond Midnights just weren't my thing, and the wrestling just doesn't quite do it for me. I listened to one and a half of them and lost interest. I may try them again, though. I'm not going to judge them all off of my first try.
There's a bug on the lens at 19:26 over the face of the actor.
Shows well how much effort they put into this movie… they didn’t redo a scene where there was a bug on the camera lens…
I think we've just seen the official replacement for Admiral Akbar's “IT'S A TRAP!”
You are right, but as a counterpoint, we are actually less racist than a most nations. For example, take the race riots that happened in France, and likewise the recently passed Burkha ban.
Fact is, almost all countries are racist, but we are a little more experienced in dealing with it. Countries like France or Switzerland only seem less racist because they are more homogenous than we are. Once people begin moving there, however, things get less rosy.
France only recently started having immigrants. We've had them for centuries.
Still, considering how intolerant we are, that doesn't speak well for humanity as a whole.
Well, guess the time has finally come to end my life, with me being a homosexual and an abomination to nature, because I go to drama class.*puts noose around neck*What? Spoony went to drama class? And Neil Patrick Harris is gay?*flys outta noose*I'm not a freak!*flys into the sun*
NPH is gay?? But he got so much pussy in the Harold and Kumar movies…..the world has changed for me today.
Lol, you didn’t know? He’s been dating the same guy for years.
I gotta say, I didn’t find out NPH was gay until after I’d seen H&K, too, since I don’t follow celebrities’ lives (except for internet celebrities), and man, it made that movie even funnier. NPH still rules.
It is not the most prominent i feature of the US, but it is a great deal and a huge problem. Second, it is not exclusive, but when Spoony starts wondering why does this happen? And why do people start into the hate/fear wagon, well, what I have exposed is a valid answer. Besides, I think that in what I wrote, there is nothing false, nor biased.
It isn’t always different races that are pushed as the demon dejour, it’s also been single mothers, rap, Marylin Manson, violent movies, violent games, nipple slips, bad language, etc. The foreign angle is usually the best as it’s fairly common knowledge that the vocal majority in the US know absolutely nothing about other lands and cultures.
Racism will never go away because it’s a simple fact that you relate to what you know, what you don’t know is either ignored or feared (feared may be a strong word), I wouldn’t argue that the US has that market cornered…all countries have their problems to varying degrees, not being immersed in other countries doesn’t allow us to fully realise just how widespread it is there in comparison.
Many times it’s a simple case of a moral panic being spread to distract the masses from pressing issues in politics – for example, a British politicians assistant was fired for being caught distributing an email stating that the day after the 9/11 disaster would be a great day to bury bad news regarding an unpopular policy change. It sucks, but that’s when you unfortunately have to rely on people thinking for themselves to see through the bullshit of it all.
What's with the new theme song? “Break Me” was your signature, the tune that my brain has permanently associated with imminent hilarity. Please change it back.
I think that was the point of the joke.
Didn't anyone notice that this song IS “Break Me”? The lyrics are exactly the same as the other song, the music and band are just different…
I like the video from your opening, but you should keep your Break Me song. Really. Keep that song.
Every decade/century/millennium needs a scapegoat for people to try to understand why people do the things they do. D&D, Comic Books, Beavis and Butthead, and now video games. We've come a long way, technologically, but people in general are still very stupid.
As for the theme song…he DID keep his theme song…it's just a remix…we've all heard of remixes, right?
BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH! OMG! This is crazy funny Spoony. I'm sorry I've been lurking your website for 3 years and this is the first time I had to make a post. Your highschool story had me rolling out my chair in laughter.
Yes, there are a lot of people in the U.S. that are racist. It's a problem that the U.S. as a whole is still dealing with, it's just not the same racism we had 40 or 50 years ago.
But, is a fucking Spoony Expirement video really the place to talk about this? I'm just trying to enjoy Spoony raging on a bad movie. Try taking a sociology class and debating it there, or to a relevant forum.
Spoony, I know you're afraid of catching the gay, but I would seriously go gay for you.
You kind of have to love the paranoia used to make that movie. It's almost as amusing as the dvd box art. Oh those crazy people. Ha. I hope they keep making the nerds laugh. When the nerd rapture begins all the crimes will be paid for in full… I mean, what? Nevermind.
So who was the poor victim of the gunblade incident? Surely you have it on camera just like the phone call, right?
I had a high school principal that thought a sculpture of the gesture for rock on was satanic and told an art teacher of mine to take it down. She would probably treat D&D the same way. She was very unpopular with students and teachers of the school. She was basically sacked by finishing her last year after plenty of controversial things she did.
6:45- “A world of invented terrorists” So is the kid missing or is he a terrorist?
So the media at the time knew that Robby had was experiencing a serious mental disorder but they blamed it on D&D? That is low.
The detective is very incompetant if he didn't bother looking in new york for him instead looks in a cave.
The cover is misleading, but are there screen captures on the back or inside the box the show how dated the movie really is?
I'M CALLING YOU OUT, SPOONY! You've used that last last joke before :PP
I love your story at the beginning, lmao! It's okay. My grandmother has stated that the priests in her church have said that Pokemon is from the devil, despite it just being an anime for kids.
People are just stupid.
I like your hat collection. Also Benzai as Tommy Wiseau= PURE WIN. Lmao. Thanks for making an embarrassingly bad movie into a hilarious review!
(Right-wing nut uses Shield Killer! Flameshield has disappeared!)Holy crap…. that was incredible. Man, it looks like your head is so far up your ass, youre staring down the gerbil!You come down here claiming the US is a racist nation, yet in reality we are no more racist than practically any other nation on the planet. What's so special about us? The fact that we're practically the defenders of the world?
Well, aside from african slaves being sold by their own people (heck, some parts of Africa STILL practice slavery), I find it strangely hypocritcal that the ones who constantly bicker, babble, and preach about racial tolerance and reparations now were the same people who founded the KKK and many racist segregated laws in America's past. The same people today who cower and hide and apologize just for spouting a censored 'nigger'! (Ever heard of a certain black person of a certain black cult saying the words: 'If you want freedom, youre gonna have to kill some crackers. Youre gonna have to kill some of their babies.'?)Also, there is good reason to be worried about terrorism. Christianity is far more peaceful than Islam. Answer me this: How many times has Comedy Central gotten away with bashing Jesus… and how many times have they got away with bashing the Prophet Muhammad? These extremists proudly announce their hate and bigotry toward our country and way of life on OUR land, yet if you bash THEIR way of life on THEIR land, you would be executed. Less said about being gay or wearing a burka the wrong way or going to the law about being raped and you dont have the right number of witnesses. ALSO, Saddam used weapon tests on his own people. 'Acceptable Racism'…
As for illegal immigration, the reason it's a problem is because they cut in front of life of LEGAL immigrants, mooch off the tax payer, get free welfare and healthcare benefits at the expense of US Citizens and legal immigrants, they steal existing identities, they smuggle drugs into our country, if one commits a crime he/she cant be traceable because we have no documents or fingerprints or any such info about them, and not to mention the problems we currently have with drug cartels. Hell, Spoony lives in Arizona! He should already be aware of this crap! (Pst, you wanna know how Mexico treats THEIR illegals?)
Oh man, this is rich. Dont you just LOVE it when the best reason not to hate something is because it's 'racist'?God bless America… at least we tolerate our idiots.
Ahhhhh, the fresh smell of conservative douchebaggery, nothing like it. Illegal immigrants don’t mooch off our tax money since they pay taxes, and if our best argument is “Well we’re better than them!” with an accusing finger pointed at a third world country, we’re not doing so hot.
And if you’re judging an entire culture based on the actions of a few extremists, then I guess all Americans drop nukes, invade foreign countries for no legitimate reason, support imperialism, and sell drugs.
Christianity is more peaceful than Islam, uh right…the Crusades, Catholic-Protestant conflicts, Jewish Blood Libel, the KKK, erm, heard of those things?
And the KKK is founded by the same guys who preach racial tolerance now? Are you shitting me?
Heh. It’s good to see you can smell the difference between conversative douchebaggery and hippy bullshit… since the conservative has a tendency to BATHE.
Of course illegal immigrants pay taxes… which is why nearly half of them are on welfare. Heck, about 30% of the inmates in California’s prisons are illegals! You got any better argument that can top “Well we’re better than them!”? Cuz, well… we ARE better than them! They apparently cant stop hopping over our borders and cut in front of the legals to come in!
I CAN judge in this case, because last time I checked, these ‘FEW EXTREMISTS’ still hold power and still preach their hate. It’s not a religion of peace by any means other than by utter dominance. Sharia Law is an incredibly barbaric law of the land. In their homelands, the word ‘jihad’ is something to fear. In fact, many American news sources are even afraid to mention the word! (Funfact: Muzzammil Hassan, the CEO and Founder of a Muslim channel in New York that taught Muslim tolerance JIHADED HIS WIFE!)
By the way, the Crusades fought off the tryannical Islamic conquests, but I know what point youre trying to make. Sure both sides had quite a sketchy past, but the main difference between Christianity and Islam is Christianity grew up. Islam didnt. Keep trying, but dont lose your head over it (*Ba dum PISH!*)
Yes. I shit you not. Ever heard of the Democratic Party? (And yeah, erm.. I heard of the KKK, which is why I brought it up in the first comment, DUR! :D)
Cool story bro
R u talkin
…Who the hell removed my comment?
Did I say something that itched a few sandy vaginas?
I noticed that the one kid was Rudy from “Meatballs” and the cop was the mayor from the first two “Jaws” movies
Oh My God! The ending is awesome!
And love the Jonathan coulton insert.
I think ima a treatning nerd…
HA! That is some mighty ridiculous shit right there. So silly a thing I have never seen. To even CONTEMPLATE that Michael J. Nelson wasn't the best host on mst3k is beyond me. Madness! Oh and that DnD shit is also pretty stupid.
Man I don't should feel embarrassed, since I am a christian. I heard plenty something was evil, specifically if it something nerdy. When Harry Potter came out I heard the Christan say “it's evil it's witchcraft:, but when World of war craft a game you chose a Warlock and summon demons, I heard nothing from christian. Christians also do nothing about the twilight era, think about a story a girl, who has to chose between Necrophilia or beastly, how that right?
Not Christians in general. Just a handful o’ wackjobs with an axe to grind and a media that loves those freaks. Most of us Christians were either trying to challenge our misguided brethren who raised these silly panics in the first place…or were quiet since the situations were so stupid that we didn’t want to get involved.
I saw this movie in 89, and it got me hooked in RPG(lol), but it was next to impossible to buy ANY rpg book here in brazil, and the ones i found where all in english(that i learned by myself just to play them…).
Nice review btw. one more thing: go watch Dreamscape with Dennis quaid: 3 reasons 1)chessy movie about dream-shearing2)David Patrick Kelly as this movie version on Freddy Krueger 3)THE PRESIDENT DREAMS OF FALLOUT 3!
Spoony, I swear, we are brothers under the skin. You talk about your past and your life as it is, man… you're not alone. Whatever you think, you're not alone.
10:35 – Best Spoony moment ever.
By “Beware the Sacrilege,” he meant to beware the sacrilege of disturbing the dead and that it might pull a knife on him. Funny joke though, and I'm sure you knew that. The intro theme cover… It… It wasn't very good! Very much unlike your reviews! =D
Bwa ha ha. This is the funniest thing you have don in a while Spoony!Hmm…I think that there needs to be a new series: religious propaganda B movies (Years of the Beast, Megiddo, etc.)
Now those movies made “Left Behind” look like a work of art!
Hahaha. This is my new favroite video. It was just absolutly halarious. Well done Spoony, well done.
(kudos on the It Lives By Night refrence)
*Powers up his shield killers spell but doesn't have a target, shield was already killed*
Hi I'm a Japanese American, although I really hate saying it like that I'd rather just say Hi I'm an American. I'm not flaming you at all, just correcting you a little bit.
1st: Every country during the time of the first 13 colonies was, in your words, racist. There was hardly a single country that had immigrants at all. That didn't begin for a good while. For what it matters the first 13 colonies were founded by people that England found to be undesirable equally as the people in question found England to be, although much like other countries that will go unnamed the Empire did send off many prisoners to the New World as well. To claim there was any sort of racial issue is very odd, unless you mean Ethnic? Well yeah there were districts for various ethic backgrounds in most major cities… created by the people themselves. You see the Irish felt most comfortable around other Irish so they lived close to them. Granted later on these areas became slums because of rapid development in the surrounding urban areas, but there were no laws forcing the Irish to live in a single area of a city.
2: The Civil War did have the effect of the abolishment of slavery but it was fought for so many reasons I could write a whole book about them and not even touch slavery expect in footnotes. The south wasn't nearly as wealthy as the north, it had smaller cities and population and was generally more strictly, as we would call it today, conservative and viewed the north as a bunch of liberal “Dandies” who were somehow less moral. Slavery was the straw that broke the camels back. And on the subject of Slavery… Slavery isn't racist, it is cruel and evil and wrong, but it isn't racist. Don't believe me? Do you know what a Serf is? If you don't you should look it up, my family descends from Japanese serfs who were treated little better than slaves…BY THE OWN PEOPLE. Also there is still Slavery to this day, mostly in Central American and Africa (some in Asia) and it is done to and by THE OWN PEOPLE. In fact Slavery started in Africa long before the Western Slave Trade began, this is all fact and not opinion friend.
3: illegal Immigration is terribly offensive to me, I got here legally and because of all the laws and red tape it took me roughly 3 years to become a full citizen. I was 7 when I first came here with my family. We followed the system, we faced all sorts of challenges, but I still love this Country, even more than my own Homeland. You see the problem isn't even the Southern Boarder friend, it is Visas both Student and Work that allow people into the country legally for a short time, in that time they are either supposed to renew the Visa, Complete school, or become citizens but sadly most don't. I'm a Legal Citizen not by birth but by proper channels, why should only I have to use them?
4: Lastly… Obama, black? *sighs* Yeah I guess if you like to even talk about skin tones then yes I suppose he is dark skinned, but he is an AMERICAN. The color of his skin shouldn't matter on the world stage and it doesn't. I'm not a supporter of the man but I can say this without feeling any regret, he is our President and I'll support him while he is here. Does having elected a Black Man (I won't use the word you did out of the respect you appear to lack) matter at all? If the world believes it does that makes them racist. The term Racist means “Doing X because of a Race” be that X good or bad. Food for that thought there isn't it? Your comments are boldly racist against Americans, it is hate speech and I can't stand for it even if it means I'm either unpopular or get my account banned. You comments were and are as Racist as anything you accuse the USA of and more Mr. Rodrigo Ibarra and I'm calling you out on it.
Okay, thanks for listening and I hope I've been clear.
Bravo! Thanks for saying that, nyarlathotep.
Yeah so this doesn't seem like a bad place to discus this; How many people had their first experience with the Idea of D&D dragons from this movie? I can't be the only one right?
Dude… You should have put a warning label on this one. I almost sufficated from all the laughing. :D
Very good review, but I gotta admit, I liked the original version of the song better.
hahaha soooo many great lines in this vid, Spoony
“And so LARPing was born…..dignity died shortly thereafter”“Beware…the humidity”
You know, you could cut away the last 20 minutes of this movie and it would be just like any other Wes Anderson film. Handful of quirky white people doing odd things while dealing with batshit crazy parents.
Also, it's my new goal in life to get Tom Hanks into a LARP.
Beware the sacrilege? Who the fuck even *wrote* that line? There's no way that could have sounded good, even in your head.
I'm guessing George Lucas.
Also: Booo, new cover song. Boo.
sorry joel was better
Each and every Final Fantasy is wonderful and awesome.
I'm glad that I finally found someone who kills people for the same reason as I do.
As an existing, D&D playing girl I am insulted by the girl in this thing. If I was half as doe-eyed and creepy as this girl no nerd would be within 20 ft of me, never mind willing to come into my home and let me feed them once a week.
Very funny, good to see Benzaie's #He who shall not be named# impression. Bonus points for using what is possibly my favourite Jonathan Coulton song ever too. I have to agree the original version of the opening theme was better though…
Oh, dear Zarquon. A “friend” informed me, in first grade no less, that I was going to hell for reading the Harry Potter books. I can't even imagine the levels of prejudice against D&D players back in the day. People are assholes. I can't believe they were going to expel you. Also, drama club makes people gay?! :O I never knew I was a lesbian!
Great review. Loved the bit with Benzaie and the gunblade especially. Uh. Thumbs-not-quite-down on the theme song remix from me, though. It's okay, but the original is better.
Exactly. It's all the stereotyping against nerds mixed in with all the stereotyping against women. FAIL.
Superb review Spoony, this is easily the best video I've seen you do for sometime. As to relate to the topic of prejudice against hobbies, I've experienced very little. The standard nerd mocking but that is all in good fun. More irritating was when I wanted to play D&D. As my parents work for the Seventh Day Adventist church schooling system they wouldn't let me play for fear that they would get fired or something. I'm not worried though as they were nice enough to get me a D20 modern Rulebook in the hopes that I could play a tabletop RPG without the horror that is magic in it. That and not of my friends are interested in playing with me.
This song is also “Break Me”, just a different style. I'd like him to have a folksy riff on it next, then maybe bagpipes.
Oh God… no! No bagpipes please :D
Dude, Miles does your makeup? That's kinda…humiliating actually, but hey, if that's what he wants.
And the theme song, well, it's interesting, but The Irresponsibles were just so awesome and that theme was so Spoony, (Even if it implied that you like to be treated rough, but that would explain a lot about Scarlett), the new one seems a step down even if it's just by comparison.
Wow, it's been awhile, but you pulled off another win. Hilarious review.
I may not be a D-back fan but I live in Reno so GO RENO ACES!
As always Great Review Spoony keep up the great work
Yay another review ^_^, I had been hoping you would go into more details about this movie, when i saw a clip from it in the DND review i was like “This looks fucking stupid”.. But it turns out that this was even worse than i though, why the hell would you play real life DND in a cave without monsters or dices, well alright they do roll dices and then they shout out “MONSTER!” and people get scared as shit and wet their pants or according to this movie they just start going completely banana. Also why would they play in a completely dark room with a freaking candle as their only light source, how serious can you take a frigging board game? Nerds don't sit in dark rooms with candle lights.. Goth's do that, nerds sits around the table eating potato chips and haves fun with the damn game. Well anyway nice review and nice work tearing down this stupid movie.
“Real Life D&D in a cave,” I’d suggest you look up LARPing.
Very funny and entertaining review. The song at the start is very cool – I assume it's a fan-cover? I prefer the original one, but it makes for a nice change. And of course, the subject matter was really funny. Sometimes I think there are not enough real threads in our world so people invent some.
Ok, at 19 mins or so, when they're talking about celibacy, is there at bug on the camera? A black smudge is moving around near the woman's face.
Hey whats with the bad intro? i want the good old intro back. but i great video and funny ass hell.
The musical intro isnt bad… but the singer is WAY too tonedeaf!
There's blood on my gunblade :PDon't you think its a 1887 bottle of wine not 1987 i mean they are from well off families.
Loved the mid-life crisis breakdown,
Ok, ok this is why I hate High School, especially when I was a Freshman. I was a member of the Video Game club, and VP of the Manga Club at my old High School, and there was a very nasty rumor going around that I ran around dressing up stray cats in little black outfits and bashed them with a homemade Keyblade, all because I am a huge fan of Kingdom Hearts. Spoony I know what it's like and it's not pretty. Now I am a super big nerd, but I am not a psychopathic kitty killer. People actually thought it was true outside of the people in my clubs. I was freakin out, like who would think that. Luckily it didn't last long, because another rumor spread about my friend Michael and that he was studying black magic, and demonology, all because he could SOLVE A RUBI CS CUBE FAST! I mean wow, why us, why the nerd, what did we ever do, Spoony there is far too much hate against us you know, we gotta find a way outta dis… also Harry Potter is not that bad compared to something as god awful as Twilight.
lol, your childhood must have been rough
Boy, the worst thing that ever happened to me playing D&D was when one of the guys I was playing with thought it was a Pen and Paper Grand Theft Auto and started killing everybody in the game… and I swear to this day, that guy was a Satanist BEFORE he started playing D&D! BEFORE! (for those not in the know with my high school year group, there was a legitimate LaVeyan Satanist in my year group who somehow crashed our D&D group. Little did we know that his douchebaggery towards Dwarven Clerics had little to do with Satan, because he was a LaVeyan and not an occultist, but he was well established as a meanie in most interactive entertainment media such as RPGs and video games).
That said I don't think ANYONE I know's ever regarded Magic: The Gathering as any more dangerous than Warhammer 40,000, but I live in Australia and we have a situation here where most of the population doesn't agree with religious fundamentalists who make laws against things like violent video games, even though fundies have power. It's because of them Australia is ridiculed as the country that bans video games that aren't suitable for people under 15.
I seriously cringed at the scene after the WTC scene. That was some pathetic acting and shitty dialogue lol
I see what you did thar.
I for one like that opening. It just reeks of bad assness. Long live the experiment! I GOT BLOOD ON MY GUNBLADE AND I DON'T KNOW HOW IT GOT THERE!
Haha, you revealed your darkest secret to us, Spoonyone
Hahaha! That was funny! :D I use to play another Roleplaying game, and i use to play Wow on a RPPVP server so i have my RP experienses. Thank god i dident grow up at that time i would have just done around scaring people for life and just laugh like hell at there stupidity… Love the hat thing! If i knew i could have sent you my rise farmers hat! If you would have sent it back ofc! Once again Love you Spoony you kick ass! :D
I just need to say off the bat that I hate the new intro and like the old one. When I hear the old one it puts me in a good mood, this new one just irks and annoys me.
The new cover of the opening is OK, but the original pumped me up for the show more I've got to say. (I liked the 8-bit one if it's any consolation) o-o
I think the cover accurately describes the movie, in that it is a lie.
Yeah… as much as I can understand you wanting to showcase indie work and give props, the intro music really wasn't my thing. Not that it was bad. I just am not into that kind of rock.
I had no idea this movie existed, but I had heard a great deal about the stories about the evils of D&D and the college students, ect. I even read a couple of books lambasting the game. It was basically one writer piecing together snips of information taken out of context displayed from another writer. It was really bogus and I spotted the blatant ignorance even as a child and when the memories of this witch-hunt were fresh in the minds of americans and most people then still actually believed (and some still do) that D&D were tools of the occult. Of course if you look at the game now, it's about as violent and aggressive as Titan A.E. …heh heh. That poor movie.
And I always thought for some reason that Hanks' first film was Bachelor Party…how wrong I was.
Next time I'll just beware of the sacrilege.
AT LAST! :) I've been waiting for this one so long, and it was fabulous!Btw, nice pimp hat, Spoony.
Man…the mayor from Jaws is a dick. I think I just found a new “it's a trap” internet meme.
Yeah, the old intro with Yuna at the opening was the best in my mind. Just seemed like the bad video games and movies were begging to not be abused any more. Review was good though, one of my favorites so far.
Sweet Jesus Spoony, that new theme song fucking sucks. It's so slow and monotonous, like a 2009 Randy Orton Promo, and doesn't have any of the energy of the Irresponsibles.
What were you -thinking-, man? Revert ASAP, this theme just won't do at all.
Yay Call Of Cthulhu! Now that's a P&P game that will make people think you're a cultist.
Also… I feel like a major geek for recognizing the Monster A Go Go sample…Does anyone know where I can find that movie?
finally a nice review again!
i have to agree, i liked the old one better. even if it was a woman singing…well, so what? at least it was energetic and fun, and even had a bit of attitude. i found myself looking /forward/ to the theme song, if anything.
first, echoing a mutual concern: the old theme song was better. this isn't a complain based on a lack of acceptance for change, just…really. the other one is just plain better. the Irresponsibles have more musical talent than…whoever that was. besides, the injection of energy that the original theme gave made me personally /excited/ by time your review actually started.
second, i actually wasn't prepared for how funny this review came out. you've outdone yourself this time, Spoony. C:
oy, typeo. *complaint
There is nothing greater than being a boil on the consciousness of religiously conservative America. I can understand the great joy of disrupting the close-mindedness of this wasteland, making people irrationally fear and loathe you.
I didn't play D&D, was actually head of Fellowship of Christian Athletes at my school and was called a satanist by people that didn't know me. And they weren't religious nuts that lied about me and thought I was a satanist in fact they were all irreligious people that called me a satanist. The reason they did was cause I dressed weird and like “Christian Rock!” They didn't even know what I was listening to was Christian! Silly people are everywhere and they aren't just the Ned Flanders type either people just prejudge people that they feel are weird.
Amen to that, brother.
How many times Fred Jones acts as Admiral Ackbar “Its a trap” LOL
hmm, a lot of people seem to be complaining about the new intro theme, to be honest i like it. if you're planning on keeping it i think it would actually be a perfect Wrestle! Wrestle! theme song.
far as this episode goes, i always love it when you get a bit political and controversial with jokes that test people. this one in particular was just damn hilarious. man, you went through some serious crap in school. i'd tip my hat to you if i were wearing one.
for the intro, may i suggest a song from Filter, maybe from their ´short bus´ album. anyway, great review, i couldnt help by watch it twice.
As a DM I have that same look whenever my characters do something blisteringly stupid. You'd think i get used to it.
Thanks for the video, Spoony. I was surprised by the new theme song, but it's grown on me quite a bit, so I might have to look these guys up. I did the same with The Irresponsibles, so yeah.
When I was growing up, I didn't play D&D in school. As a matter of fact, even to this day I can count on one hand the number of D&D characters I've made and still have fingers left over. Instead, for me, it was FASA(Then FanPro, now Catalyst Game Labs)'s giant stompy robot game, BattleTech. Thanks to it's wholesome SCIENCE-y goodness, even my parents never had a problem with buying me books. My peers…well, you know how that goes. I did get a few odd looks when I brought out my first copy of the 2nd Edition Shadowrun book, though…
By the way, it might have come up before, but I'd like to know where you get all those awesome movie posters.
I remember when I was young I heard people talking about D&D and when I wanted in they refused me…Thats how pathetic my childhood was…
Only in America is it friggin' possible to be so superstitious and COMPLETE FUCKING IDIOT RETARD to believe you're a huge cult member due to this …God I hate stupid people.
Sprode, like JJ, loves his funny hats. Especially the tin foil one.
Leave him be. He’s trying so hard to be considered “edgy” and “cool”. It’s kinda funny.
You'd think a DnD nerd might be interested in having graph paper for a wall. It should have been hexes and not squares though.
My older brother played D&D when he was in high school, and I wasn't cool enough to play with him and his friends. Think about the for a second I wasn't cool enough to play D&D. I think I'm the only person on the planet, what made it worse was my mom was the dungeon master and i still was aloud to play FML
“I run out of hats!”lol
You may say Harry Potter is harmless, but I watched ALL of Benet the Sages reading of My Immortal. Ya… I'll accept your apology now ;)
Will this be the last Tommy Wiseau joke? I'm serious, this is getting a little annoying. The review was still funny but seriously, stop. We all know it sucked that he took down The Room review. I hope this doesn't become a running gag for everyone at Channel Awesome or TGWTG.
Are you saying that America is full of stupid people, because if so, you might want to be quiet, less the GATE KEITHER shows up and banishes you to a party, IN CANADA!
Now I will mock you with a hearty American skronk! SKRONK!
Nah, not stupid, maybe just a lot of uneducated :/
“Nah, not stupid, maybe just a lot of uneducated :/”
I’d say that’s a problem with all nations. Just people tend to have their blind spots.
*Bows to Vanlan's superior tolerance for craptastic fanfiction* I tried so hard to watch those videos, even as background noise, but in the end her story was too awful for me. And I've read Tenchi on a Plate of Sashimi.
Not bad but when DEADLY PREMONITION lol
i smell trolls…
LMAO! Nice review Spoony, it was weird seeing Tom Hanksin a role like that.
I loved the part where you crack up about you computer Science degree andbeing stuck with a blue robot….
and also there can never be enough of Tommy Wiseau,hilarious……
“Codemonkeys” a cartoon show on G4 spoofed this.
I AM PARDUE THE TRAVELER!
I was so happy to finally learn about this movie—I could not understand Todd’s obsession with Pardue and then! Lightbulb! Made the cartoon infinity times funnier.
Awesome review. I always wondered why you hadn't done a review of this movie, despite you using the “Mazes and monsters is a far out game…” clip at least once before in a video. I loved the way you ended the reivew , and I got the reference to the “When I kill people it's purely for sexual reasons….WAIT!!!” line your Dragonstrike review.
Nice one spoonyone it also annoys me how people use scapegoats because I kill people with a wrist mounted chain saw for some reason people want to blame this game called madworld I don't know why
Edit: I'll add this on too but I saw this as a kid and I then picked up another movie called Aliens and put that in for a better time lol awesome huh
Ehhh, that new opening! It's no fun. D:
Ah, Spoony, this is a prime example of why I donate. Pure epic humor and nostalgia. Makes me wish I was more nerdy in middle school so I could've experienced the discrimination of playing a game like D&D. All I did was play video games. Psht. Whatever.
…Though I think when I was in middle school, the whole “zomg satanism” thing had blown over. I understand how that pentagram is considered satanic, though. My Wiccan friend, who was purely Wiccan and had absolutely nothing to do with Christianity or the devil, was criticized by my family for having a pentagram in his car back window, which was actually a positive symbol in Wicca (which I forget the meaning of, sorry), and it was like… “Dude, family, wtf? He doesn't worship Satan. He worships the Wiccan god of nature. How is that bad?” But I'm getting into a totally controversial and touchy subject now.
Back on topic, a totally enjoyable review. Oh, who I'd kill to be a part of your secret D&D games in grade school. …No, I kid. It would've been awesome, though.
Dude, I didn't even know that the whole D&D thing was such a big deal back then. Sort of reminds me of the stories my dad told me from back in the day with the controversy around rock'n roll (backmasking and other subliminal messages that will turn your children to the devil!!!) which he (and I) knew were absolute bull. The scare got to the point that his mom even checked his room one time to see if he had crack or weed, which he didn't have. The even more ironic part of it was that my dad's a pretty conservative, geeky Christian and is one of the most innocuous people I know. Based solely on what you've pointed out, this D&D scare was even more ridiculous since the demographic is far, far geekier than with rock. It's incredible how people find scapegoats where there are none to be found.
Anyways, this was a very funny review on such a horrible and strange movie. Also, I'm guessing the opening is a one time thing, like the 8-bit version you used one time(?). I really don't know why people are just assuming it's a permanent thing. :/
The fuck… (10:30 in the video) Spoony has a computer science degree??Nice to know that…
I'd never heard of this movie before, it sounds like the sort of trainwreck abortion carcrash I should seek out and use for shouting things at/drinking games.Great review though. Nobody ever called me a gay satanist in high school. With all the drama club and roleplaying I did, I almost feel like I missed out somewhere!In other news, Benzaie=lolz and yay for Joco music!
Travel and read some history.
Scarlet has posted on TSE facebook page that Spoony won't be doing anymore of Deadly Premonition, at least not knowa lot of others are reviewing it and he was mostly using it for testing some things<quote> Hey guys! I keep seeing questions about Final Fantasy X and Deadly Premonition. Spoony will likely NOT continue with Deadly Premonition, as he said that too many other people were doing LPs of that game, and it was more an experimental thing. The FFX review *will* continue, but not for a while. There's a backlog of oth…er projects in the works that need to be completed first. Thanks for your patience! ♥ – Scarlett</quote>
Question: Is it okay to be wary of Illegal Immigrants if they are antisemitic? Let's face it, ethnic nationalists aren't the most tolerant of people…
I love the new opening ^_^ . Best part of the entire episode was the part with the gunblade, I ended up laughing till my sides hurt
aww really :( i liked that review. epic sad face
New Opening is too much Serious Business and less Lighthearted Hilarity. Do not like.
Otherwise nice and shiny review.
New Intro is too much Serious Business and less Lighthearted Fun. Do Not Like.
Otherwise good review.
That got one of the biggest laughs out of me… Not only the line but the deliver sold it. Pure Gold.. This is easily one of my fav Spoony videos
They probably denied you because you were young and they wanted to go around slaughtering everything they found and you might have been doing things like “Let's make friends with the troll! He knows the woods better than we do!”
I had a nightmare that I was stuck playing marvel ultimate alliance like tom hanks in this movie after watching this video.
I was so excited to see the video review was coming. I read all your written reviews, and I even have a few old issues of Knights of the Dinner Table magazine and Shadis kicking around somewhere. This was a good one, especially when you were wearing your gym shorts on your head. I did that with my spandex in Boot Camp and pretended to be a pharoah.
Oh god was that a monster a go go joke?
Mike > Joel
Flame war GO!
Wow… the new opening sounds like the kind of song a highschool band would write if the only music they ever heard was written by linkin park.Really really terrible and almost defining lame.
this was shot BEFORE NC review, so sorry if it feels redundant people
As a Frenchman, do you really think Wiseau _is_ French, or is he more of an interstellar nationality?
So this is what started Tom Hanks on comedy and surrealism.
I got a better question. Is it okay to be wary of illegal immigrants since they're committing a crime?
Well, yes, but I greatly fear the Spoony One’s ban hammer.
I really don't like the new opening ;_;
The review was great. The new opening was bad. Mike Nelson was better than Joel. I think I summed up a large part of the comments here.
I agree. This country is plagued with idiots.
To the nerd reference, good thing you didn't hear about Otakon here in Baltimore.
Mike was def better than Joel but everyone here has to be in their 20s to be sync'd with spoony's references, so they're (like me) the people who were only old enough to get into MST3k during the Mike years. And, as someone who knew MST3k originally from Mike and then went back to watch Joel seasons I was never able to shake the feeling that it was .. less than. Trace -> Bill Corbett as crow is a big part of that feeling too. RIFFTRAX > CINEMATIC TITANTIC TOO !
Really funny Spoony, Don't kill anybody with a limit break now.
I have to say that Mike had more natural charisma as the host of MST3K.
Huh, so it really is purely for sexual reasons…
Glad I missed this movie….though I have to say I'm probably going to track it down so I can see the whole thing for myself. Also, this vid probably has the best freakout moment from Spoony yet!
Honestly Spoony, I don't know if you read all the comments on your website or not, but I had to tell you about the new intro you made for your videos, to be frank..
IT SUCK ASS..
The heavy metal track is horrible, the typography is amateurish, the video editing is crap-tastics!
Although your old intro was horrible, but that was EPIC comparing it to this piece of shit.
Get professional help stat! For video editing I mean. :)
I think most of the big scares of each era seem totally bewildering a few years down the track. But yeah, the D&D scare was probably one of the silliest ever. I think it wasn't taken quite as seriously in my country as in America, but I can still recall television reviewers hailing “Mazes and Monsters” as a really important movie, a deeply thoughtful, realistic and balanced response to a major social problem, blah, blah, blah. Now, of course, it's a joke.
I'm sure I've had that GM look more then once with a player of mine in our Star Wars RPG group. The problem is that he hasn't done anything his bounty hunter(SW fighter) hasn't been able to survive yet. He's even insisted once that we split the party when sneaking into a dark factory leading to himself and a partner stuck on some catwalks that had guys that had shot at the rest of us. One of the group was Sullustan and they can see in the dark but not well enough to know it was them up there so the rest of us ended up shooting at them both. At the end of the same fight we cornered the guy we were after and instead of a stun blast he opted to start a boxing match with the guy that he knew was an expert boxer. Maybe we should have let him kill him after connecting the knockout punch now that i think about it…..
You see, I kill people to stop the evil galactic overlord Zoron from taking over the earth via his minions, which although they look human are in fact green-horned amphibians from Antiquenite 4.
I have this all on very good authority because the Governing galactic body and the forces for good from Xenex 7 have implanted a microchip in my brain so I can always hear their voices giving me new missions.
My psychiatrist – who is in fact a green-horned amphibian from Antiquenite 3 that lost its memory when it fell to earth escaping from Zoron – tells me that it's all in my head, but I know the truth that the antipsychotics she prescribes are in fact blockers that stop the microchip from receiving messages from the galaxy beyond. So I have to keep tipping them down the drain to disguise the fact that I can't take them because ZORON MUST BE DESTROYED!
… btw, your intro kinda sucks a little now. I really liked the old one – mostly cause the song was so damn catchy – but this one, er, doesn't quite seem to cut it. Go back to the old ways! (Awesome review).
Great review but I find it dissapointing that “beware the sacrilege” isnt an internet meme, i just laugh everytime I hear it and think it took several takes just for him to say that with a straight face and not burst with laughter.
The thing people have to understand about Jack Chick is that he sees the Devil behind the following:
Rock musicMormonsMuslimsCatholicsNon judgemental ProtestantsGay peopleEvolutionHippiesWorld history since the 9th Century(Possibly) LOLcats
Everything is a giant conspiracy to keep people from converting to Evangelical or Fundamentalist Christianity, especially pop culture. This is why the guy writes and sometimes draws these little cartoon tract booklets that you might see tacked to a corkboard at a laundromat. I went to school with Fundamentalist wingnuts and they wouldn't touch a Chick tract with a 15 foot pole because he was too extreme (and these were the same peckerheads who would run gross anti-abortion films in chapel.)
the people that informed him about these supposed conspiracy theories on that list of yours comes from people who’s bullshit claims have been refuted, my favorite being rebbeca brown who supposedly converted a witch who married satan she has a book on that and if your a fan of the insanity that is jack chick then browns book called “he came to set the captives free” is somthing you should check out considering its one of jack chicks top sources
Honestly, koldstare, I don't know if you read replies to all your comments on this website or not, but I had to tell you about this comment in response to the Mazes and Monsters video, to be frank..
IT SUCK ASS
The grammar is just terrible, there wasn't actually an ounce of constructive criticism to be found, at no point did you actually point out where in the video his stuff looks amateurish or use any details to substantiate any point at all.
Although your screen name is pretty horrible, it sounds like a work of creative genius in comparison to your half assed criticisms.
Get professional help stat! May I suggest MS Word of firefox to check spelling and proofreading future posts =)
Spoony, when are we going finally going to get a review of The Room? You've made a few references (Benzaie in this one, the Wiseau-verse in Warrior 2), but doesn't a movie as transcendently awful as The Room merit a full review from you? We treat you like a PRENCESS, AND YOU STAB US IN THE BOCK! DO YOU UNDERSTAND LYFE? DO YOUUUUUUU?!?
I think you're underselling Joel's sleepy, affable charm! They are like my children. It would be impossible for me to pick a favorite.
Nostalgia Critic did it. But it got taken down cause Wiseau is a pussy.
Yeah why do people have this view? I mean of my gaming group the closest thing to suicidal person is the guy who regularly gets alcohol poisoning at college. The closed to to insanity is the guy with ADD.
THE HATS! HAAAHAAHAHA! plus the amphetamine addiction, erotic murder, and the useless degree breakdown made this the best review i've ever seen. oh yeah and the gunblade… YOU'RE TEARING ME APART SPOONY!
And a 911 joke! this is pure win.
Everything between Spoony's WWE Entrance Theme and Benzaie was brilliant. Not that the Benzaie cameo was -bad-, it just felt unnecessary.
Actually…take it from someone who grew up reading Jack Chick's shit. He's just bugfuck insane and is using fundamentalist Christianity to spread the crazy.
there is another non-english 2000 movie w/ a similar plot, i think its called “heart of the warrior” or something
If anyone can read even a panel of a “Chick Tract” without realising the author is a fucking looney should probably be forced to undergo sterilisation.
Ass-pained much? :p
16:32 spoony's pose with a pink hat :) lol
people think the opening sucks? i think it's cool :/
I don't want to say I collect them, but I actually will read them if I find them because their level of insanity is kind of funny when it's not terrifying. :P
ABOUT THE NEW SONG
it was good but it gives the show a different sorta feel since the style is so different, so when you just opened the review like you always do it was really jarring. i dunno. take that with a grain of salt
Very good review overall and I may never be able to look at Tom Hanks the same way again. Also about the new song, people he said in the past that he wants to try some new versions but they are in no way permeant. Spoony was just trying something different. However I do agree with Jumpooleez that it was jarring going from the heavy metal opening to your usually cheerful opening.
Holy shit, I just burst out laughing when Angry Joe showed up as the “illegal immigrant”. That's a low blow, Spoony. But hilarious.
This was one of your best yet spoony.\You and Ben and few others should do a remake of the room. LOL
love the new intro, but i would love to have seen in it the doctor Insane transformation
Don't worry. He wasn't kidknapped. They just went LARPing.
I game where you play as a fictional character and the sole purpose is to make a load a money better start recalling all those games of monopoly its fucking evil i tell you
And Clue… since in that game you might just end up a murderer.
I don't get the hate on the theme song cover. I'd kill to have someone write me a theme song, and to have it covered by ANYBODY would be an honor. How many of you have your own online-show theme song? I don't even like that style of music, but I enjoyed the new, different opening all the same. Explain, internet. Explain.
Preference for the original version?
I'm surprised more people didn't harp on that. It was the first thought I had at that line.
Bayonetta cameo ftw!
btw, thanks for the info about the whole Mazes and Monsters book. i never heard of of this story or where it came from.
New intro = dislike, The review was awesome though
Well, it looks like you do read the replies. Don't that beat all? And to answer your question, not really. I rather enjoy pointing out people's foolishness to them. As someone who is fueled by pettiness, it makes me smile and reinforces my inordinate belief in my own intellectual superiority to the average shmo.
yea, gotta agree, not a fan of the new intro. i like the mood of the original which was fun. this new one is all angry and metal…
I can totally relate to the whole “degree becoming completely useless” bit…right down to the type of degree. Yeesh. Although I can't say much about the robot.The intro's not bad. A little different.
did you know that the scorce of alot of jack chicks anti rock and roll and D&D crap came from a man named john todd who the pastor at the end of the chick tract “dark dungeons is modeled after, who had been denounced as a fraud and has been under investegation for forming convens to meet with under age girls and im not kidding about that. and for anti catholic conspiricy theories was a man named alberto rivera a man who would make up stories about his time training to be a priest for the catholic church and steal money from people under the guise needing to build a school. you can look them up on wikipedia and get the whole story.
I recommend that everyone read a few Jack Chick tracksthey're so fucking bad and batshit insane, they're awesome
You're such a hilariously bad actor, Spoony, but I still love you. Also, is that bit about MIT true, or is it just malarkey?
Obscurus Lupa reviewed it before him. NC set a precedent by doing that that anyone on the site can review it. So…
My take is that both Jack T. Chick AND Fundamentalist Christianity are bugfuck insane, because what he rambles on about is just an amplified version of the crap you would hear about in chapel on Wednesdays (the Smurfs are Satanic, Fleetwood Mac is Satanic, Jews are going to Hell because they won't “complete the covenant” and covert, yadda-yadda-blah-blah-blah) except that in Chick's version the last panel of the comic has the Devil laughing HAW-HAW-HAW. It's very hard to hate people for even existing and still try to convert them, but Chick found a way.
I kept thinking you'd throw in a Scott Hall reference whenever “The Great Hall” was brought up.
Ahahah, I don't think I stopped laughing from the moment you said “call the national guard!”
anyone else think that the blond haired guy's performance is like Reb Brown in 'Captain America'?
I think I'm the only person that liked the new intro.
I like the new song. However, I don't like it paired with you. Can we go back to the old the song? It just doesn't seem like you, Spoony. You're more upbeat and funny… This new song sounds kind of hardcore to be what about you are.
Nice 28 Days Later reference near the beginning.
And WOW those people take their D&D game too seriously. Playing with twenty billion candles? I'm surprised the girl didn't catch her hair on fire.
I get the feeling th new intro is a one-off thing emulating the way the Nerd has a bajillion versions of his theme that fans have made for him – I remember Spoony saying in an earlier video he wanted to do the same…
Spooney admitted he is a Gay Satanist.
Spooney now I have a image of you getting ass pounded by the devil.
Thank you for aknowledging my fantasy.
ya new intro does not fit. Still awesome review and the last bit knocked me on my ass trying to keep from laughing to loud.
More like a deer in headlights, but then he was supposed to “balance out” the hat fetishist, the gamer chick, and Insane Tom Hanks….it failed miserably, but that was what he was supposed to do.
cool new comment box :o
That rant about MIT and the software companies was the funniest thing I've ever heard!!!
I don't like the Nu Metal, Noah.
It's not as good as the original.
I am LOVING that The Room reference! Oh god…'nam flashbacks of Tommy Wiseau ass…..OH GOD.
Well, not really. Opinion on it is overwhelmingly negative, but there are a number of people who like it. ^_^;
The cover of Break Me is painfully bad. Even the 8-Bit version was WAY better. That said, holy crap! I'd heard about all that fearmongering bullshit about D&D, but I didn't get any prejudice for my gaming ways… (Not specifically, anyway, I still got the run-of-the-mill Nerd treatment like everyone else :D ) Perhaps the Great White North is a little more removed from the whole Hellfire and Damnation insanity our American friends seem to enjoy so much, but JEEZUS CHRIST!
LOVE your rant at 10:16ish, Spoony! My GF almost choked when she saw it :). Also, love the Monster A-Go-Go riff, but I think I was the only one in the room who got it.
What a bullshit movie. Ah, well. Spoon on, brotha.
Excellent review Mr Spoony! I quite love the usage of Philip Glass' excellent score from Koyaanisqatsi! I'm a huge, huge fan so as soon as I heard the music kick in at the beginning my appreciation of you and your work just went from “a hell of a lot” to “following you like the leader of an occult cult of gay satanists” … or words to that effect. :)
LOL a gay satinist.
I remember that psycho bitch that hated Harry Potter!Did you know that the woman that called Harry Potter a sacrilege didn't actually READ the series because “God told her not to”? I personally think that she's delusional…but thats my humble opinion.
Scott Hall and “great” do not belong in the same sentence if referencing each other, unless “great” is followed by “-ly past his prime.” :p
I'd say she was bat-shit crazy, not just delusional.
My thoughts on the theme, since that's the popular topic for the comments, I like the cover version, I'm impressed that someone was able to cover “Break Me,” and I'd throw it on my playlist. That said, it didn't match up well with this video, which I think might be part of most peoples' problem. If it'd been on video that was a little more metal, people woulda hated it less (I'm not naive enough to think they'd change to liking it :p ).
Creating your own campaign at 9th level?…Does that mean you need to play a character and you suddenly unlock being able to DM at only level 9?.. Ow… my brain… this movie is retarded beyond comprehension.
Lesson learned: Never eat – at least, not popcorn – while watching a Spoony review. I almost choked seeing Spoony's hat changes alone (I won't ask where the shiny pink cowboy hat came from ;); it's awesome how he can be hilarious without even needing to say or do anything (though the commentary certainly didn't hurt). Another wonderful job, Spoony, and thanks for once again making me proud to be a nerd. 8-)
Mazes And Monsters is a far out game!
By the way who is the evil Ahk Ohga? That guy Frelik the utlimate warrior in his youth wanting to slay Hoke Hogan and in an occasion of partial stutering called him Ahk Ohga?
What is everyone's problem with a Mainstream Rock sound? Sheesh, I loved that cover version. I want to see him use it much more often!
the old intro was better. old but better. no offense.
You know what bothers me the most about this movie? The clerics using a knife and not a blunt weapon like a mace.
I'm a Catholic and even I think She's Bat-Shit insane!!!!!
I am Smizmar the Cleric! Being only third level, I can only comment on reviews of horrible movies made by people who don't know what the heck they (the movie makers) are talking about!
I guess I got lucky. My mother played origonal D&D way back when so I never had any of that 'OMG! EEEEEEEEEEEVILLLLL!' reaction from her. I DID get it from a religious nut of a classmate, though. I could never convince him I was not learning real magic..though what I would not have given for a Silence spell. :P
I love Spoonys Stuff. Has me wishing I could make a review on the new Castlevania HD on XBL arcade..but I lack anything more than a plug-n-play webcam, so it would be grainy video of me playing and commenting..How thrilling. :P
The guy who got me into playing D&D was part of the old guard (The guys who knew what “Chainmail” the game was and could tell you what “Blackmoor” was), and I grew up smack dab in the middle of the great D&D satanism craze. The hysteria really was as bad as it's made out to be.
Still, this movie along with the “Dark Dungeons” religious tract is actually considered required viewing for my group, especially the younger whipper-snappers. The camp value laughs are just too much.
I love your Mythbusters t-shirt, Spoony! :Dand great video as aways
People tend to irrationalize things because it gives them something to do. The thought of something going in the opposite way they want it to always makes them think of it as “evil”. Personally, I despise D&D, but not because of the Satanism, I just really hate it. Probably because I never really got into it, but I can at least respect the people who DO like it.
Is there any mp3 for the new opening song. Its Great
Just youtube “living illusion break me.” It should be the first link that comes up. Unfortunately, there's no full song; only the 58 second intro.
That getup with the headset and shades reminds me a wee bit of Dr Disrespect from MachinimaRespawn. I could be wrong about that though. lol
Benzaïe's 'Tommy' is better acted than Wiseau'skilling to get an erection? who are you, Ichi the killer?
maybe it was done as a joke but in the 2002 flash back the french one has PlayStation 3 games on the shelf behind him
maybe it was done as a joke but in the 2002 flash back the french one has PlayStation 3 games on the shelf behind him
17:23 – LOST reference?
The fuck is that fuck is that fuck is that
the quality looks awful for a dvd
You likely just had a bad group. Those are a dime a dozen. Like anything, it takes time and effort to find the good ones.
D&D is absolute hell with the wrong DM or set of players. It’s worse than hell if you have both.
Gotta say I loved this one. Can’t stop laughing thinking about all the ignorant morons thinking DnD, harry Potter etc. is dangerous and evil.
Yes, because we didn’t have crazy people and killers before this, nooooooooo.
Keep it up Spoony. Excuse me while I level up my Goliath Warden.
Benzai is the definitely the best Tommy Wiseau
They’re not dolls, they’re miniatures!!!
This is what happens when you try to make a cleric without sufficient wisdom score.
if you go to their website they have a free download for the song on the main page
I just cracked at the scene where he starts realizing his life XD
I’m not sure why D&D manages to conjure up such strong feelings for you, but it’s nice that you haven’t gone Chick on us all.
The hysteria was cwazy. My parents bought into it too.
One of the best quotes, by the way, came from a priest whose name I forget. “Roleplaying games are LSD for the soul.” Oh man, if only.
You should have played it up. Made him think that he had better treat you well.
No, I actually had a “decent” group, by my standards, I just got bored out of my mind.
There’s really no point in talking about it; I don’t like the game, so I stopped playing. You can enjoy it if you do, but I just don’t.
Funny story. That woman was part of a splinter congregation (basically a rogue denomination that is not officially recognized) who the pastor of my church debated when the anti-Harry Potter stuff was at it’s height. He (my pastor) was arguing that this whole hysteria was, in fact, foolish and that the Potter books were actually good for children (citing apologists, theologians, psychologists, sociologists who recommended the books and the like and mentioning that Rowling was a Christian writer in the vein of Alighieri, Lewis and Tolkien).
Their (the fruitcake’s) response? Even if the Church, the Bible, and everyone else disagreed with them, they (the splinter group of Harry-Haters) would go forward because “we knew better”.
So yeah. Once again, we have a case of a fruitcake who has an agenda all their own.
But the story has a happy ending: my pastor impressed a collector who was in attendance during the debate who awarded him with a 1938 copy of The Hobbit…that was signed by JRR Tolkien himself.
Isn’t the bum in the subway scene the old guy from Strike Commando and Yor ?
Turn Undead!!! TURN UNDEAD!!!
I love Spoony’s old, world-weary cop voice. “I’d be blowin’ sunshine up yer ass if I said that was true…” Classic.
I’m surprised Spoony didn’t mention a major plotpoint in the movie… the “Great Hall” was a delusion of Robby’s brother named Hall, who died a long time ago. So “joining the Great Hall” in looney-speak meant that he was going to join his dead brother. The movie completely fails at its intended message because Robby was bonkers because of a tragic loss, not a roleplaying game. If anything, it’s a PSA against people who have dead family, because, according to the movie, they might go batshit at any moment and kill you in a delusional episode. <_ _>
Awesome and hysterical review. I’ve watched it like a dozen times. Though I did notice a continuity hiccup in the flashback: 2002 to Benzai has a bunch of PS3 games when PS3 didn’t exist until 2006. Then again, the movie had the EXACT SAME CONTINUITY bit, so was that intentional?
Call of Cthulhu!! :DD
Just wondering, since it’s been close to a year since you’ve last talked about it, but how is 4th edition holding up? Have you tried Pathfinder yet?
Speaking as a ‘nerd’ I WILL get violent over the whole Joel/Mike issue
I liked this intro more than the usual. Alternative metal is nice. I prefer heavier types of metal (the type your parents probably despises the most; death metal and its subgenres, though I do listen to almost all of it… symphonic black metal, industrial metal, progressive metal, power metal, folk metal, New Wave of British heavy metal — you name it!), but any metal is better than no metal in my book! Except oldschool black metal… I’d even take Paramore over that, any day.
Oh, I’m drifting off. Sorry. I just had a little chance of sharing my love for music (yes, music!) there.
Very entertaining episode though as always, Mr. Spoony.
Lol Awesome review as always Spoony, and I agree with you, the whole stereotype, grouping thing is utterly moronic … Oh and the scene were you satirized your own life xDDD!!!!! Turn Undead! TURN UNDEAD!!! (P.S. Nice hat collection :D)
Goddammit Tom Hanks, now I can never see Toy Story the same way again.
Also Bayonetta FTW.
Hmmm, can’t say I have ever played D&D. Where I come from, the big game is Magic The Gathering. I do agree with your hatred for scapegoats, especially when it does come to things like violent video games. I am a psychology major, and have actually studied the theory that violent video games and television shows and similar things cause people to be more violent. As of yet, there is no substantial evidence to prove that violent games cause long term effects. Short term they can do things like increase adrenaline and raise blood pressure, but even then, actual violence isn’t very likely. One has to already be incredibly mentally unstable to be affected.
ok, now that I am of my psychology soap box…great review Spoony. I enjoyed the different hats, and, as usual, was laughing almost the entire time :D
You should’ve put Admiral Ackbar’s “It’s a Trap” right after THE BEST LOOK A DM EVER GAVE!
other wise great review…. Tom Hanks….. I dont think i’ll be the same again…
Beware the Sacrilege!
LMAO the Jack’s tattoos was great
and ROFL to the killing people to get erections!
Argh, I hate all stereotypes associated with nerd-om. They’re almost as bad as the stereotypes that come with liking heavy metal or “emo” music. I THOUGHT WE HAD MOVED PAST ALL OF THIS GUYS. Aren’t we supposed to be an accepting society or something? That’s what everyone says. You have to be tolerant. WELL TOLERATE MY GEEKINESS then we’ll talk.
Also, the heavy metal opening sequence is AWESOME. (And where did you get those hats?!)
Yay! Bayonetta! o/
I wonder what your neighbors thought when they heard you scream, “I’m gonna burn this mother down to the ground!”
wow benzaie can time travel because the gun blade part takes place in 2002 when the room was released in 2003!!!!!!!!!!!!!
wow benzaie must be able to time travel because the gun blade part is in 2002 when the room was released in 2003!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
wow benzaie must be able to time travel because the gun blade part was in 2002 when the room was released in 2003!!!!!!!!
sorrys on the triple post
Too bad those were only rumors. It’d be pretty cool if you were a gay Satanist.
what is sad is my my fire and brimstone christian parents still believe in all this stuff. I still play it anyways ITS A FUCKING BOARD GAME!! GET OVER IT!!. I feel ya spoony i am a student in high school and this ridiculous propaganda still hasn’t went away.
I must quote the best thing from Spoony’s text review of this film:
(On the remodeled hospital bathroom bedroom)”Why, the Myers family loved my work, and so did that nice Voorhees family!”
I nearly died of laughter from this.
we dont get DnD over here like atall lol so i don’t get the fuss really, tho it does seem a bit extreme too blame games for missing 20 year olds lmao
I never played much DnD until after I graduated, but my dad’s always told me the tales of religion vs DnD and how stupid and silly the whole argument got. One of the guys I played with is part of a hardcore religious family, and he was talking with one of the priests one day who actually got really snappy at him when he mentioned he played. It’s pretty funny, I don’t think some of them will ever get over it.
On a side note, Good review. Props for Jonathon Caulton’s “I feel fantastic”, I found myself singing the lyrics without realizing it. =P
I don’t think it’s “religion vs. DnD” insomuch as it is “Panicky authority figures doing what they usually do”:
It’s like I said before: one of the worst (and only scream outs) I got was from the parents of one of my younger players. They were atheists themselves and they barged into the comic shop where we held the game, pulled their kid out and accused me of “poisoning his mind” with “magical thinking” all in an attempt to “convert him to Christianity”. They called D&D a “Religious Indoctrination System”. The thing is, I knew them. I went to school with their eldest son. Yet, they just snapped on me
Weird stuff. I guess it varies from place to place. But in the end I guess every so often you’ll find wacky folks in every group.
Hail for the douche!!!
Hey Vin Disel plays D&D you know….right…its all stupid.
Both my parents played DnD so when I tried it back in middle school, my dad actual gave me his old guides. I never really got into it, but it was fun while it lasted.
21:22 – 22:04 was pure genius.
I love you, Spoony
That’s silly according to the 3rd ed book of exalted deeds the vow of celibacy only give a +4 bonus vs charm effects nothing about powering up spells. :P
Wait… penicillin WAS discovered by accident…
Thats the point of the joke. Discovering penicilin by accident is as rare as discovering a hot chick that played D&D in the 80′s.
It’s Ironic how religious groups blame games like D&D or Doom, and yet they ignore it when their own followers go insane and do things based on the bible.
My nanna used to be a nurse and she tended to mentally ill people who though they were Jesus or Moses.
She and other hospital staff had to restrain and subdue many of these ‘I’m Jesus” people to prevent them from jumping off a building to prove that they can fly.
Dont forget the fanatics who kill others because “God told me to”..Oh, and the people who sneak into the zoo/circus at night and climbed into a Lion Den/cage at the Zoo to try and tame a lion, bible style, and end up being mauled to death.
D&D, Doom, Harry Potter and even The Bible dont make people do bad things….People who are insane do bad things and blame it on those things as an excuse.
Same thing for secular groups who pull that same argument (like that atheist parents union who tried to ban the game in the 80s and early 90s, or certain overblown demagogues or nosy ass senators). They all seem to ignore when one of their own blows a fuse and causes mayhem based on what they read or were told.
Of course, as both more level headed religious and secular groups point out, just as those who do that crap were nuttier than a honey log being shot at by a pecan machine gun and thus blaming what they read or heard is to miss the point, so does blaming DnD when a guy starts going after New Yorkers with a pocket knife while dressed like Harry Potter’s coke addict cousin completely obscure the issue.
I’d argue that my cleric does indeed have the Fly spell, but that’s only because I have the travel domain and it’s a domain spell both in 3rd ed and Pathfinder, however I don’t know about 1st edition not to mention the writers clearly knew nothing about D&D and made up a lot of crap.
I know it’s been a while since this review was posted, but I couldn’t resist to watch it again, I love it.
Greetings from Spain!
I first saw this waaaay back when it first aired on TV, and thought it was a crying shame that *I* didn’t have anyone to larp with, because it looked like a lot of fun. I also thought that roleplaying games looked pretty cool.
XD That’s right, it was “Mazes & Monsters” that got me started RP-ing. XD Oh, the irony.
I also thought it was completely retarded to blame the game for something that was clearly only affecting ONE person out of the group. And watching it knowing what I know now, it would have been reaaly nice if they’d done a little bit of research and come up with an actual mental illness (say schitzophrenia (sp?)) to portray, intead of just “and then he’s all like, ‘I am a holy man lol’” or whatever.
Also also: Considering the rumours that were flying around at about this same time that Procter & Gamble was run by Satanists (apparently started by a disgruntled ex-employee) I find it HILARIOUS that they helped produce this. XD
Damn it, Spoony, you missed a golden opportunity at the end! You should have cut Admiral Ackbar in when Fred from Scooby Doo said “It’s a trap.” Because lame internet jokes never get old.
I love the video you’re linking to so i will put a re-link to it
on the calendar it looks like 1983 not 1982.
the calendar looks like it says 1983 not 1982.
theres blood on my gunblade!
that one nerd was wearing a RvB “i hate babies” caboose shirt…i got a kick out of that.
anyway, i never played D&D but from what i seen its probably less harmful than those Japanese card games.
15:41 This is what we call the DM ‘oh shit’ look. Like he (in the case of my brother’s boyfriend our DM) just realized how entirely stupid you just were and how catastrophically screwed your character is, and they struggle to find a way to salvage your character and the campaign. X3
“….and they struggle to find a way to salvage your character and the campaign.”
I never bothered with that. A pc dies, then a pc dies. It has always been my view that a DM should force a player to live (or die, as the case may be) with their choices in-game.
im suprised you didnt make a bosom buddies joke when he was running with the girl.
Now I am imagining a box running around the city kidnapping people. It could be a Syfy movie.
You know that blood on the gunblade thing actually happened… well kinda. There were three dudes in my hometown (eindhoven) who’d dress up like Squall, Zell and Seifer. They went to the same rockbar I usually went and that was the first time I ever saw cosplayers, before I even knew what the heck cosplaying was. I recognised them from the game, but I never had the urge to talk to them, cause even then I could tell that FF8 was shit.
Anyway apparently Zell’s father was a drunkard prick and eventually they tried to kill him with knives and hammers (who can blame them though, they probably finished FF8 multiple times… anyone would be batshit insane by then). They didn’t succeed though and were sentenced to 3 to 5 years in a hospital for the criminally insane.
Now that this video made me thinking about this it’s kind of weird that I couldn’t find any publishings to back this story up (aside from some dutch gaming websites). But I’m not making this up, I’ve read the article in the local newspaper way back (this happened in 2003). I guess the media witchhunt against games wasn’t in it’s prime back then.
Hey! I wear hats!
Ahh I know this is an old review, but it still makes me want that “beware the sacrilege” shirt
Hey… Something that bothered me is that he tells them where he is. New York. As a matter of fact that detective acts like Robbie didn’t contact them and they just got worried about him being gone for a long time but he called them… It’s also the only way the tower pilgrimage can be introduced. Maybe they glean it as it does look obvious but he is crazy. They can’t tell that is a map of New York and the Twin Towers from the drawing. THEY KNEW WHERE HE WAS! Did they just not tell the cop? Then why did they tell him about something that would get them possibly arrested? Trespassing in an off-limits cave! WHY DIDN’T YOU POINT THIS OUT!?! AUGH!
Go to post-secondary school now while you still can because god knows that when the future comes, the post-secondary schooling you went for is now completely fucking useless and you’ll be stuck at home with your annoying parents trapped forever in a hopeless fucking purgatory with a fucking futon bed and Ikea furniture playing still going to school and playing around the free parts of the internet AND I CAN’T STAND IT ANYMORE! WTF HAS BECOME OF MY LIFE!! I’M GOING TO BURN THIS WHOLE FUCKING PLACE TO THE GROUND!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!
*board moderator injects morphine into his post*
I love you Spoony! *creepy smile and stare*
Seriously thought, I can totally relate to what you said and I found it fucking hilarious. LOL wtf…
Feh…they said this about Werewolf “The Apocalypse” >:C
“It inspires devil worship and makes kids uninterested in the education they must have. Marilyn Manson is responsible for Vampire ” The Masquerade” apparently.
I just realized something for the 9:40 section:
Wouldn’t a video-game designer and software developer be in practically the same educational fields (math, science and technology)? Also, if he’s going to a university, ANY university, wouldn’t it still potentially give him lots of options and a good/great job? (And I’m not even gonna talk about other real-life variables that affect actually having a job…)
Are the writers THAT stupid?
I’ve heard from a friend of mine (who may or may not be correct) that employers theses days look upon degrees from elitist universities (like Harvard) with a certain degree of suspicion because many if not most of the students in those kind of schools are having their way payed through by their rich parents. Whereas middle-of-the-road schools are mostly full of people from working-class families who work hard to earn their way through so they can have a better chance a good career.
I too am a nerd. I know the pain.
Who here isn’t?
I just realized, it’s not the gamers who can’t tell the difference between fantasy and reality. It’s the paranoid nut balls who criticize gamers who truly believe in witches and mystic cults. *They’re* the delusional ones, not us!
While you are right about the nutballs who believe in games “corrupting the youth”, I wouldn’t let all gamers off the hook. Trust me, there are quite a few I’ve either met personally or read of in case histories who are nutty enough to do this crap.
The key is to understand that everyone who matches that description was disturbed BEFORE they started gaming, due to conditions outside of gaming and just used it as an excuse.
In fact, all of the kids in ‘Mazes and Monsters’ had pre-existing psychological boo-boos. Like the kid with an oppressive mother who makes radical, invasive changes to his son’s room without listening to what HE wants.
You know what, I think the game AGREES with you, without knowing so.
Oh thank you Spoony. Thank you so much. Your breakdown about a useless college degree gave me so much laughter and joy…seeing as how I’m the same way. God Bless you, man!
I too know the pain of nerdom. All the other kids laughing at you and making fun of you because you’re the only one who’s seen Aliens….. At nights I dream they understand…..
I’ve gotten that thousand-mile stare before…
Hey, i have seen what D&D can do to a person.
I think you should think before you critizise this movie, it is exagerated but over all pretty true to reality of those who play too much.
Please be careful.
Yeah….no. Sorry, it only happens to those with pre-existing conditions.
Well…you go ahead and play then.
but dont go complainin when you start getting wacked out and depressed though.
you were warned. If i saw my children playing D&D i would slap some sense into them.
It is just a too much of a risk to play around with even if not all get the negative feelings these kind of games may bring. You just never know…
“You just never know… ”
Actually, I know plenty. I’m a Mental Health Counselor specializing in Crisis Intervention. Which is why I can tell you with professional certainty that the game is not the problem (in fact, I use modified role playing games as therapeutic instruments to help my younger clients deal with trauma and learn coping skills) . Any “negative feelings” do not come from such games (or any game for that matter), they arise from within the client. Now if the person in question is very disturbed, then activities which involve stressful situations and personality re-imagining can exacerbate a pre-existing condition. However, as previously noted, this is due to a pre-existing condition and NOT the game itself.
The reality is that role playing games such as D&D can be very useful in promoting critical thinking, stress management, interpersonal coping mechanisms, and more.
I hope you are lying now because if you really do work as a mental health counselor and tricks poor sick people who trusts you and are willing to do anything to get better into gambling with such games you really ought to get fired and investigated by the authorities. Such behaviour would be absolutely despicable.
No gamble, just science in practice.
In fact, the ACA and the APA both have journals dedicated to various forms of roleplaying and roleplaying games used for therapeutic purposes.
Why don’t you read
“The Drama Within: Psychodrama and Experiential Therapy” by Dr. Tian Dayton and learn a bit about the subject? You’ll see that it is nothing to fear.
You are both brilliant and patient. The world needs more people like you.
Thank you. I appreciate your kind words.
Are you mentally handicapped and/or insane? Do you even KNOW what Dungeons & Dragons is? How it is played? Wanna know what a basic Friday night was for me and my D&D and other RPG playing friends in middle and high school? We sat at a comic book shop, playing D&D, Magic The Gathering, Mageknight, and other tabletop games. Note that we weren’t out getting drunk, doing drugs, or breaking the law. We were using our brains and using our imaginations to have a good time. We were PLAYING A GAME.
If you believe that D&D instills negative feelings, you’re obviously some closeminded absentee mother who believes everything she sees on television. You shouldn’t let your child play Operation, because they might just be under the false pretenses that they can perform dangerous and illicit surgeries! Better not let them play Clue, because then they and their friends will get together, murder someone, and then find out who did it! Better not let them even THINK about playing Guess Who, because before you know it your children will be stalking and tormenting innocent bystanders!
Are you beginning to see the ridiculously flawed logic by which your brain works? It’s insane to think that just because a bunch of stoned teenagers in the 1970s got high on LSD and then decided to have a real LARP fest. Why does no one blame the drugs for that incident? Why does no one blame the absentee parents? Because ever ridiculous crusade needs a scapegoat, and boy oh boy was Dungeons & Dragons ever a good one. All because it allows you to assume the role of a fantastic character and go on adventures. Better hide those Choose Your Own Adventure books (or ANY book for that matter) from your kids! Hell, you need to hide the freaking BIBLE too, because there is far worse written in the Bible than there ever was in any D&D book.
It’s insane morons like you who ruined video games for us adults, people like you who decimated television and radio into the mind-numbing crapshoot that it is. You don’t want your kids playing? Fine. But you need to hide them from EVERYTHING ELSE in the world that has them using their imaginations. Get over yourself.
Yeah, something tells me that he/she was just a poe.
No one EVER blames the parents. Even though they are at fault most of the time for letting their kids actions go unchecked.
Every time a parent lets their minor aged kid buy an ‘M’ rated game, see and ‘R’ rated movie, do drugs, rob convenience stores, and kill people, I blame the grown adult who has complete reign over the little fuckers life and can lock them in their room whenever they deem fit.
You haven’t once elaborated on any proof as to how this game does any of the things you’re claiming. What reality is it representing?
Go ahead. Give me your best shot. Cite me something.
She/he/it was most likely a Poe.
So…every game that involves dice is gambling? I should remember that next time I want to play Monopoly.
It is very, very sad to witness such a degree of ignorance on display. It goes quite beyond closed-mindedness. Engaging in a socially active activity that brings forth the oportunity to freely use your imagination causes depression and negative feelings? I almost wonder what your thoughts are about writters, artists and every other activity out there that dares think outside your box. Do you have even the slightest idea what you are talking about? People with your kind of mentality brough us such great things as gratuitous censorship and witch hunts. I’ll support ftidus12′s advice here: get informed before you bash that which you do not understand.
Wacked out and depressed? Negative feelings?
Wow, you certainly ARE an authority on D&D’s effect on the human psyche. You just trying to be as vague as possible so we can’t pin you for being full of crap. That’s why you avoid explaining how these supposed ‘negative feelings’ will even arise.
Either you buy into the who ‘satanism’ thing, which is largely aesthetic and won’t harm anyone who can tell the difference between reality and fiction, or you are trolling us for a laugh.
Its not the game. Its the person. I seen people play the game and go onto live great lives without having mental break downs. I also ready of people who larp and got pregnent by someone not their husband. or someone who who hurt themselves to match the wounds their character had. Does that mean D&D is evil or bad? No. Just that the people who do things like that had issues that only came out because of a game. A book or a movie could have set it off.
Wow, I know you will never read this, but I’m surprised someone didn’t tear you a brand new asshole. The decided to be really nice for some reason.
I know your full of shit because you never described what you thought D&D actually was, or WHY it was bad. You just spouted baseless paranoia. The Internet has little tolerance for unfounded, poorly researched opinions like this one.
If you ever DO read this, please tell me ‘what D&D can do to a person’. I would be more than happy to listed to your alleged experience with this game. If it ever existed that is.
*AWESOME HEAVY METAL INTRO!!* Hello everyone!
As a furry, I can relate to the demonizing of early D&D gamers, I’ve played the game before, It’s lot’s of fun and get’s people playing together, hell my dad and I played for a while.
Uhh… what the hell does being a furry have to do with D&D?
mazes and monsters is a far-out game
Benzaie must have very useful resources to have a bunch of PS3 games in 2002.
Sure, DnD is satanic. And I’m a ten story purple horned hippo covered in icecream and red spots.
And i can relate to Iron Weasel in several ways. My ENTIRE FAMILY plays the god damn game, and we have been for god only knows how long. Seriously, my mom, my dad, all four of my uncles, and both of my brothers and sisters have all played the game. Its fun, and is kinda good socially.
my god this movie is the reefer madness to nerds
Best scene in this review has to be Spoony’s breakdown 10 minutes in…..wow…hilarious..
Sadness!!!! D&D doesn’t make you crazy!!! This movie is bogus and I salute you for beating it down. Level up.
Tarnish notte the majesty of Jay Jay’s collection of hats!
I watched this movie after this review, and I have to say there’s a lot of other stuff in there that he missed out which is just as stupid. Like how in the hell would Robbie FORGET HIS OWN NAME. There are many scenes where he only answers to Pardu. If that’s the case then he’s obviously suffering from some form of multiple personality disorder, which has nothing to do with a fucking game.
Btw you said this movie was the second worst thing to happen to the two towers, you’re wrong. It’s clearly the worst thing that happened to them.
I just watched this review right after the DungeonMaster Review.
If you will permit me. I would like to point your attention to a movie called ‘The Gamers: Dorkness Rising’. It is literally the only good DnD movie you will ever watch. If you want to see a DnD movie that’s true to the game, has a decent plot and interesting characters, not to mention being pretty damn funny at times, then I beg of you to see this movie. It’s a B-movie with a budget little over 2 bucks but please don’t let that scare you away. I promise you you wont be disappointed.
Yep seen that. Awesome movie for what it was. I budget may have been for $2 but it was still better than the original D&D film :D
This is the first time I’ve watched to the end of the credits and saw that dedication to Gary Gygax. Who is Gary Gygax? Did he die or did help edit the review? Is he one of Spoony’s friends?
He’s the guy who originally created D&D and he died about three years ago.
early in this video when spoonys showing pictures of nerdy people, gary gygax is the old guy :D
This film needs to be spread everywhere xD *is also a harmless nerd*
Also, is it just me or is that DVD artwork ripped off Labyrinth for the, well the labyrinth, and Dragonheart II for the dragons?
Maybe it’s just me but the art looks damn familiar.
What was that clip with the guys with the lightsabers in the opening from?
I think it was from his E3 escapades, when talking to the guys behind the old Republic MMO
interesting opening. i like it!
Seriously, its badass. Might wanna keep this one for later.
OMG I’VE FOUND PARDUE THE HOLY!!! SERIOUSLY!!!
it’s in the core rule book page 8 under clerics…
1:31-1:33-THANK GOD I’m not the only one!
Awesome video Spoony i love re-watching this review
Ending reminds me of shutter island.
Shame on you for saying that. Shutter Island was actually good.
This review honestly reminds me of my stepmother. Having knee-jerk reactions to things they don’t understand and don’t want to understand. Poor, sad people. :P Seriously, this is one of my favourite reviews ever. XD
The Sacralidge…beware of it…
When was Spoony jumped by Jedi?
I thought the 2nd worse thing to happen to the WTC was… um… the first bombing in 1993. This movie, though? Clearly the third. ;-P
If he was a ritual caster, he would’ve been able to summon flying horses, so he could’be still flown.
awesome intro – love it.
12:21 Jeebus, Robbie just plays it off like it’s an every day occurrence. DUUDE!! You found a gamer girl! Tell her you love her! Tell her she is everything you never knew you always wanted!
16:10 “sonar”? …. WTF? Lady, you mean without making an “Intelligence”, “Perception” or “Dexterity” roll.
”Yeah, this is what happens when someone who’s never actually seen a D&D game in his life tries to write a movie about D&D” – Noah
17:28 “Beware of the sacrilege!” Wait, was that “IN character” or…not…?
Ironically, Penicillin was discovered by accident!
Dat’s da joke.
19:20 -> Cue the James Bond music.
MAN, nerds have it good today. I was almost never picked on for being a nerdy kid at my high school. Yeah, the jocks would try to push my buttons when I was little, but by high school everyone was too mature for any of that shit to slide.
Maybe I was just REALLY fortunate. Good thing I’m in the College of Engineering at UTSA, constantly surrounded by my lanky, occasionally bearded, Mountain-Dew drinking brethren. Just gotta get through all these really stupid core classes. WHEN THE FUCK WILL I EVER USE GENERAL CHEMISTRY AS AN ELECTRICAL ENGINEER?!
You’ll be happy to have it if you’re ever designing industrial control systems.
Actually Spoony the Larping at the ending where Robbie was still crazy could have worked to their advantage if they were intelligent enough to think it through. Basically they could have rolled a random monster encounter and made it attack Robbie and during the battle rigged it so that the monster kills His character. That might have snapped Him out of being crazy.
If my party tried that resurrection plan I’d hang back to “stand guard in case the skeletons find a way around” and then cut the rope. Then I’d climb down and steal their stuff.
I allways loved this review. And so far i think it is one of spoonies best, if not the best review he ewer made.
Never played D&D myself, the only rulebook i ever owned was for Werewolf the Apocalypse, and never found any friends to play any roleplaying game with, unless you count things on the internet. Damnit, i am jelaus of Spoony not because he is an internet celebrity, but for having people of the same interest in school.
Well, have you tried “Meetup.com”? I always use that to find RPG groups in my area.
Damn dude, I haven’t watch this video in a minute; but this rock intro you have is fucking bad ass, why don’t you use it more often?
When he says “Jak’s tattoos” does he mean from mass effect 2?
wtf 19:39 theres an insect on the screen keep watching it crawls upwards
I am a gamer (tabletop, video games etc.) who enjoys heavy music (iron maiden, wintersun, opeth etc.), but I need to offer a few observations here. The majority of gaming devices (cards, dice) come from ancient divination paraphernalia such as tarot cards and runes. Occult practitioners today (new agers, luciferians, wiccans) still use such methods to access hidden (occult) knowledge from ascended masters or spirit guides. While this movie may be a technical joke, many people today really “believe” in spells, they just call them cause-effect thinking, or positive affirmation methodology. “See it in your mind’s eye, and it will happen” is essentially the mantra of writers such as Eckhart Tolle, Norman Vincent peale, or Helen Schucman. While to some, D&D is just a game where you let off some steam and enjoy storytelling, to others it is an outlet to actuate mental alchemy, and in effect, create an ACTUAL alternate universe in one’s mind. This is where D&D CAN be a catalyst for the distortion of reality, depending on how far you take it. One of the best MTG players at my local hobbyshop (who has been to Japan for tournements) is a devout satanist, and has attributed much his success to positive affirmation. He also said that MTG is a great introductory step (flavorwise) to get interested in occultism. While there is a lot of arbitrary information being thrown around, there is definitely a correlation between the occult and gaming. As far as there being a “gateway”, that really depends on the intentions of the player.
That’s such bullshit. “It really depends on the player,” can be attributed to just about anything. Marijuana never led me to any other drugs, though I’m sure other people have tried heroin because they loved weed. Not every gamer is a Satanist or a lover of black magic, in fact, I’m pretty sure they’re the literal 1%. The fact that you’re gonna sit there and throw out ONE example of a “satanist gamer” isn’t enough evidence to say that it’s possible for Magic the fucking Gathering to introduce people to the occult. Sheesh.
“Not every gamer is a Satanist or a lover of black magic” Is kind of like saying not every human being likes eating pretzels. Magic and the occult have been a fact of life for many thousands of years, just today they’ve been remodeled more for entertainment. As for the “literal 1%”, Wicca is a WIDELY practiced religion in the American military, and has been growing rapidly in western culture for over 50 years. In fact, Winston Churchill was a practicing druid who made witchcraft a permissible religion when he became prime minister. And by the way, that “satanist gamer” I mentioned is an extremely intelligent guy who has more insight than most. The problem today is that the concepts of “satanism” or “witchcraft” have been satirized so much that they’ve become more like cultural idioms.
Man, I really wish you’d use this opening again sometime.
Ok here we go *cracks knuckles*
I actually have to agree with a poster on your commentary. This movie is not a Pro-RPG movie but its not an Anti-RPG movie either. As anyone who is talking about the game in a negative way is actually shown to be very wrong. The Detective I mean.
Also the way Robby went crazy is not so odd. Some people if they where to have a mental break would regress to a child mind or to a time they felt same. But Robby had a place better then that. He had a character who was strong and powerful so his mind went there to protect itself.
Also lvl 9 seems to be a big deal in this game so if Robby had been playing the game long enough to get to lvl 9 that means it was not the game that made him go wacko. My theory is the stress of a new place, collage, his girlfriend kinda putting the breaks on a little, his parents being shitty, and maybe even being a little to into the game all came crashing down on his head and to save itself his mind went to the only place it felt safe.. Into the game where he was powerful and strong.
Uhh…. Don’t you think you are reading FAR to into this movie? Have you ever seen the book? I have a fairly good Library in my town and not even them would EVER get this book. I’d have to order from some crazy bag lady in Sears.
a pretty standard case of schizophrenia, if you ask me. Robby was just going through a psychotic episode, being a schizophrenic myself, i can sympathize with. however, i grew up with childhood schizophrenia, and in most common cases of schizophrenia, it develops in the late teens, to early twenties. sure it could have been brought on by stress and what not, being that it was kinda sudden, However, it could have been in his family, and aside from all that, we’re not given too much info on robby before he met with the group. he could have been well fucked up, with many warning signs that we were never made aware of. so, in my educated opinion, this could be a very plausible scenario, and, for the most part, it’s played out pretty well, however, alot of it is just bad writing, and i doubt the makers of the movie thought this deep into it, so i don’t think we should either.
so wait they think that a guy who thinks he’s a holy man who is pretty much more peaceful than anybody known today and only kills criminals is a bad thing
Well…yeah. I mean, don’t get me wrong – this film is fucking awful, and the whole thing’s attitudes towards RPGs and mental problems in general is really confused.
However, I think it’s fairly reasonable to condemn a guy for outright murdering muggers and petty criminals. Hell, I’d condemn a police officer for shooting a criminal in the face, let alone an ordinary person who decides to be a vigilante. And let’s remember, this guy isn’t even that – he’s just a crazy dude who thinks people who attack him are monsters. I.e. a dangerously unstable person who has murderous psychotic episodes.
And while we’re at it, “is pretty much more peaceful than anybody known today”? I’m fairly sure that the vast majority of the global population that have never STABBED SOMEONE will beat this guy hands down on the peaceful-o-meter :P
I still think the phrase “The intense occult training through D&D prepared Debbie to accept the invitation to enter a witches’ coven” is so stupid, I literally cannot say it with a straight face. Jack Chick is a fucking FOUL excuse for a human being, but by God, some of his comics are so unintentionally funny.
And I can never again take Tom Hanks seriously. Thanks a lot.
i liked the visual for the intro, but the cover version sucks. sorry.
This is probably one of my favourite reviews by you Spoony. It’s excellently planned and executed via jokes and gags, information and commentary, and clips and references. Had me laughing and learning the whole way through! Can’t ask for much better than this ^_^
When he says “What do Jack’s tattoos mean?” is he talking about Jack from Mass Effect 2?
No, Jack from LOST.
For a bit of trivia, Kevin Peter Hall played the Gorvil. Who’s Kevin Peter Hall you may ask?
Kevin Peter Hall has been in a number of TV & movie roles, but he is best known as The Predator.
verry funny… actually im going to become a psychotherapist, and today we talked alot about psychotic teenagers… so jear this movie is soooo wrong either from a gamer or a therapist point of view… what a great coinsitent to end this day… thx for the nice review…
ps.: if ur interested in a more realistic picture of a psychotic person u should watch ‘the white sound’
Man, Benzaie’s a pro, having PS3 games in 2002
That song is awesome, I wish it was longer than 58secs.
I just downloaded the ballad of Bilbo baggins from itunes… I can’t find a ringtone of it damnit! That would be awesome to have as a ringtone since I am so damned short!! XD
Robbie was schizo!
Actually..it DID work for Shutter Island. At the end (Spoiler Alert) he led the doctors to believe he hadn’t been cured cause he didn’t want to live knowing what he done. So he chose to let them lobotomize them so he could live as a hero in his mind.
*sigh* I miss playing D&D….ever since I moved I havnt found another group to play with…pluse I lost my chacter sheet…*headdesk*
I miss playing D&D…. ever since I moved I havent found another group to play with… pluse I lost my chacter sheet…*headdesk*
Id rather watch this at 4 in the morning than masturbate.
That’s how good it is.
When you said “What do Jack’s tattoos mean?” did you mean Jack from Mass Effect 2?
I believe that is a LOST reference.
This reminds me of Reefer Madness, you blow it up as much as possible making everything what it never was or is in the first place and everything is just stupid.
Oh dear god!!! EVANGELION Refrences someone kill me!
Because he’s a “holy man” and warning her about disturbing the remains of the dead. (of course, if it’s hanging in a cave with lights coming out of it’s orifices there’s a pretty good chance nobody ever did proper last rites on this thing anyway)
was i the only one that kinda got scared when he showed the satanic harry potter
shittiest wiseau impression ever.
Thumbs up Spoony. You’re tirade in the first 5 minutes makes me feel like you actually hurt this movie back!
This still is my favorite spoony video.
whats the name of the intro?
Funny how Benzaie managed to get PS3 games IN 2002!!!
I never play D&D by candle light. though it does set a certain mood. Just because this is the 666th comment, it doesnt mean that I am Satan.
Yeah, as a Christian, I know for a fact that pretty much all the crap that was thrown on D&D was just crap. Those pamphlets were the worse offenders. But the Harry Potter thing . . . I’m may get some haters probably, but there is SOME validity to those claims, but again, not at the same level as many believe.
BUT, there’s a misconception on what witchcraft is today. It’s not satanic, but is based on a Wiccan beliefs. As for the magick, think of it like the Force (not the best simile, but you can go with it), like an energy field that surrounds us that can only be accessed at certain ‘level’ that Wiccans attempt to attain, but with no distinction of ‘Dark Side’ or ‘Light Side.’ According to the Wiccan Code, they believe that one can do whatever they want PROVIDED that they don’t cause harm to others. Not the cackling, cauldron-tolling uglies that have been parodied since the Looney Tunes, are they? So, witchcraft isn’t demonic in nature, but it’s still against Christian beliefs. Add to the fact that there are a number of Wiccan sites that actually credit Harry Potter in assisting them in getting more people to join them, and it can be understandable that some Christian parents can be MILDLY concerned about it, but no more. Still, it makes little sense for agnostic parents to give two shits about Harry Potter since, again, they’re not exactly evil.
Oh, but this review was great. Really funny . . . wait, are you saying you went to MIT?!
You know Harry Potter has nothing to do with Wicca, don’t you?
Also, I’m an atheist and I don’t care about either religion, but Satanisms moral code is far more intelligent and reasonable and humane than Christianity’s. On the off-chance you’re still there. Believe what you want, but don’t claim that a story that essentially amounts to ‘kids with superpowers’ has something to do with a religion.
Well, actually I find that the Harry Potter books are more of an expression of Gulain’s “Power of Will” metaphysical outlook (sort of a proto-transhumanism, if you really think about it) than it does either a purely religious or purely secular concept of magic or superpowers.
Now usually I would stop right there but….
“far more intelligent and reasonable and humane than Christianity’s.”
Now see, I usually don’t touch other people’s religions or ideologies. But since you want to play that way:
Far More Intelligent?:
Look at the centuries of Christian philosophical study and contributions to logic which comprise the church’s intellectual history. Their contributions to science and art from their earliest days to now.
Far more Humane?:
Look at the centuries of service and personal sacrifice for the sake of others in Christianity. Legions of Christian people who have lived, struggled and died for the sake of perfect strangers simply because it was the right thing to do.
I think its pretty clear that if you want to quantify “humane/Intelligence” insofar as moral codes, it’s fairly obvious who has more ground to stand on, Soup.
What exactly are the contributions to logic and philosophy that the Church has made? Logic and reason entered a dark age during the time of the dominance of the church, and only came out about 300-400 years ago. I’ll admit they founded many great universities, but they were also involved in suppressing the knowledge gained by those same universities. Because there were smart people who were also Christians doesn’t make the religion or the church itself any kind of good thing. Nor does the fact that there were good and kind people. What exactly about the religion encourages that? We’re talking about an ancient, brutal religion that supports rape, slavery, genocide, discrimination against homosexuals, and the killing of ‘witches’, which if that isn’t a weasel word for anyone you don’t like I don’t know what is.
Again, believe what you want, but don’t pretend the church is or ever has been a force of good in the world. Or a force for anything but collecting lots of resources and influence.
And I was actually referring to specific moral codes here. Look up the Eleven Satanic Rules and compare them to the Ten Commandments. There are, for instance, rules against making unwanted sexual advances, or against harming children, or killing animals for no reason. I think its clear which one is superior.
Let’s see what you got here:
“What exactly are the contributions to logic and philosophy that the Church has made? Logic and reason entered a dark age during the time of the
dominance of the church, and only came out about 300-400 years ago”
That is a complete myth. The old “Dark Ages” concept has been long discredited as load of non-historical garbage peddled
by 19th century demagogues. The Middle Ages saw the Church:
-Translating and distributing the works of the Greeks and Egyptians.
-Creating the Modern University and fostering the spread of language and literacy throughout the West.
-Expanding the medical sciences especially in surgery and
pharmacology (effectively giving birth to the modern practice).
-Developing radically new agricultural techniques
-Expanding Mathematics in new directions, and pursuing the sciences
of physics and astronomy farther than any culture before them.
….and that’s just for starters. I can go all day and night listing exactly
why that first statement you made is false.
But don’t take my word for it:
Here is a simple break down (in review form no less) about just where the Dark Age Myth came
from and why its just nonsense.
“I’ll admit they founded many great universities, but they were also involved in suppressing the knowledge gained by those same universities.”
Wrong again. See above. Demonstrate this “suppression” of yours. I’m waiting…..
“Because there were smart people who were also Christians doesn’t make the religion or the church itself any kind of good thing.”
*sarcasm mode: ON*
Oh yeah…because its not like those people past or present credit the metaphysical founding of their faith for inspiring them to seek the reason
behind the universe (*cough* Francis Collins *cough* Jane Roughgarden *cough* Freeman Dyson *cough*). I mean its not like the Church itself has
financed and supported these universities and scientific endeavors (*cough* Oxford *cough* the Vatican Observatory *cough* the entirety of the
Middle Ages to the 21st Century *cough*) …right?
*Sarcasm mode: OFF *
Your “argumentation” in this bit is just hand waving and saying “Nuh uh!”. A tactic which falls to pieces when the other side
provides even a bare minimum of evidence and examples which clearly contradict it
“Nor does the fact that there were good and kind people. What exactly about the religion encourages that?”
Oh I don’t know…..maybe the fact that the religion itself based on the principles of self sacrifice,
altruism, and the search for better understanding the universe to better serve not just God but your fellow man?
Seems pretty obvious to me.
“We’re talking about an ancient, brutal religion that..”
Captain, I am detecting large quatities of ahistorical bs ahead.
Actually this “brutal religion” was actually among the first ANE faiths to hunt down and punish rapists and
defend and seek compensation the victimized. Try again.
One of the first to start the fight for abolition? The apostle Paul? John Wesley? St. Francis of Assisi? Any of this ringing a bell?
Then why on Earth is the whole history of the Christian faith full of Christians giving up their lives to stop genocides and to
oppose the governments that would do so?
Explain why The London Times (10/1/1942), explicitly praises Pius XII for his condemnation of the Nazis: “A study of the words which Pope Pius XII
has addressed since his accession…leaves no room for doubt. He condemns the worship of force and its concrete manifestations in the suppression of
national liberties and in the persecution of the Jewish race.”
Albert Einstein quoted in Time magazine (12/23/1940): “Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing truth.
…The Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. . . . I never had any special interest in
the Church before, but now I feel great affection and admiration …and am forced thus to confess that what I once despised, I now praise
“discrimination against homosexuals”
Given that millions of Christians have supported and fought for LGBT rights (in fact, of the 14 major denominations, seven are gay affirming), and
many more if one counts the independent congregations, I’d say you are painting with a broad brush.
“and the killing of ‘witches’”
Oh really? Then explain why the Church officially stated (very early in its history, mind you) that belief in the reality of night-flying witches
was heresy because there was no such thing as an actual broom riding, curse casting witch (The Canon Episcopi). Explain why Pope Innocent VIII
decried ANY kind of physical punishment for supposed “witchcraft” and cautioned anyone (even those outside the faith) to simpy investigate and
preach as their only recourse (so as to prevent people from panicking before natural phenomenon. Explain why the church banned
Malleus Maleficarum (putting it on the index) and why the two authors Heinrich Kramer and James Sprenger were censured by the Church ( and in
fact, Kramer was excommunicated for writing it three years after the book was published).
But let’s step back a bit and try something, okay?
If any of your accusations held water, then the same argument (the ‘witch’ hunts, the genocide, the slavery, the homophobia, and the rape culture)
applies to Atheism (since from the Jacobins, to the Stalinists, to the Maoists and on, committed every single one
of the hideous acts you listed) and many can also be found in philosophy (if not practice) Satanism (Aleister Crowly, Anton Lavey’s major
influence in starting the CoS was a notorious bigot who believed in ‘cleansing wars’ and the enslavement of ‘lessers’, was a rape apologist since
he defended the need to ‘give seed no matter the cost or willingness of the parties’ and more than a few ‘Satanist’ bands and writers have made
statements about hunting down and destroying Wiccans for a variety of stupid, nihilistic reasons).
Now does this make Atheism or Satanism part and parcel to these things? Of course not. Many Atheists fought to defend others and for all his
self-professed ‘misanthropy’, Anton LaVey never supported such ideas and condemned those who did amongst his ‘brethren’ as the pack of idiots they
were and that didn’t represent the CoS.
“Again, believe what you want, but don’t pretend the church is or ever has been a force of good in the world. Or a force for anything but
collecting lots of resources and influence. ”
It isn’t a matter of “belief”. It’s a matter of fact. I just proved your entire screed wrong with evidence and reasoning. The Church HAS been a
force of good and it HAS been a force for justice, and it HAS been a force for human advancement.
“And I was actually referring to specific moral codes here. Look up the Eleven Satanic Rules and compare them to the Ten Commandments. There are,
for instance, rules against making unwanted sexual advances, or against harming children, or killing animals for no reason.”
Christianity already has those…AND it is free of the Randian selfishness that Satanism had under Lavey. A fact which
you would have known if you had actually read and compared the two texts. So you strike out here as well, Soup.
“I think its clear which one is superior.”
Yeah, I just proved it, didn’t I?
Nice try though. Next time? Read up on the subject before you hit the ‘send’ button.
“Galileo Goes to Jail and Other Myths About Science and Religion” by Ronald L. Numbers
“The Beginnings of Western Science” by David C. Lindberg
“God’s Philosophers: How the Medieval World Laid the Foundations of Modern Science” by James Hannam
“The Early Christian World” by Phillip Esler
“The Devil’s Avenger” by Burton H. Wolfe
“To Protect my Brothers: The Church in the New World” by Phillip Matthews
I’m afraid you haven’t proved much of anything to me. You’ve proved that people can do good things, but the church has never been and will never be a force for good.
Where does Christianity have rules against making unwanted sexual advances, harming children, or killing animals for no reason? Raping a girl was a good way to get her to marry you under OT law, god told the Israelites to massacre children all the time, and blood sacrifice of animals was a huge thing.
Also I wasn’t supporting Satanism, but I do find the ethical code more just and moral.
“I’m afraid you haven’t proved much of anything to me. You’ve proved that people can do good things, but the church has never been and will never be a force for good.”
Even though the people themselves point to their faith as the impetus, even though I demonstrated categorically with historical examples
and proof that has been and is a force for a good and even provided sources to that effect…I haven’t “proved anything to you”?
…and you don’t have any justification for that. You hand wave it away, just because it conflicts with your ideological hangups. I find it hilarious you claim you don’t follow an ideology but you behave in the same manner as a fundamentalist of any stripe.
“Where does Christianity have rules against making unwanted sexual advances,”
Judges 19:25 & 20:5
2 Samuel 13:14-32
2 Co 7:1
“harming children, or killing animals for no reason?”
“Raping a girl was a good way to get her to marry you under OT law”
No. Under OT law, a rapist suffered one and only one punishment: death. His family
would then have to pay hers.
The rule you are misquoting is about fornication between unmarried lovers, not rapists.
“god told the Israelites to massacre children all the time, and blood sacrifice of animals was a huge thing.”
Given that the wording in Hebrew specifically EXCLUDES children (the term is used for yong men in the army in their early twenties, not civilians and certainly not children and that in both Isaiah and in Hosea God rejects blood sacrifice…it’s obvious you have obviously never read the thing.
“People are good and bad no matter who they are, but the things in that book are evil. There were plenty of southern slaveowners using it to justify slavery. ”
…and those in Maoist China who claim that their Atheistic outlook justifies the enslavement of anyone who transgresses the state.
…and using your example, there were even more using the Bible to prove how wrong their interpretation of those passages are and freeing the slaves.
“The Scientific Renaissance 1450-1630″ by Marie Boas Hall
“The Jewish Study Bible”
Anything good the church has accomplished is in stark contrast to centuries of repression, violence, and abuse, and furthermore, any good the church accomplished could have been accomplished without the corrupt and evil philosophy.
Let’s deal with these verses.
Did you read this? This is a case of property crime because the girl is betrothed, and the only reason she’s spared is that she’s in the country and no one can hear, unlike in verses 23-24 where the woman is killed as well because she didn’t cry out for help.
Men rape a concubine.
Concubine’s owner describes her being raped. This is seen as a property crime against Israel.
2 Samuel 13:14-32
Absalom has his boys kill a dude for raping his sister. Hardly a story of moral principle.
Says that Jerusalem will be sacked and women raped. The Jews did this ALL THE TIME. Not that they deserved to get it back, I’m just saying. Again, not a moral principle.
2 Corinthians 7:1
This actually says nothing whatsoever about sex.
This is god saying that he’s had enough animal blood for the day. That’s all.
As to massacres of children.
‘Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy
all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and
women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’
-1 Samuel 15:1-3
There’s also a passage that tells parents to stone unruly children to death. And one in ‘the law’ that gives the only penalty for a city the worships a different god as the complete destruction of the city and the slaughter of everyone in it. I can find them if you like it.
This is an evil book, any philosophy based on it is evil, and I’m willing to bet you’re a far better person than the god you believe in.
“Anything good the church has accomplished is in stark contrast to centuries of…..”
A point which you have failed repeatedly to demonstrate (and in fact have been proven wrong by moi on every turn).
Let’s proceed shall we?
Did you read this? This is a case of property crime because the girl is betrothed, and the only reason she’s spared is that she’s in the country
and no one can hear, unlike in verses 23-24 where the woman is killed as well because she didn’t cry out for help.”
Since by now you’ll have seen my response when tried this gambit, I think it’s pretty clear that I did read it and demonstrated exactly
why you were wrong there and now.
“Judges 19:25 – Judges 20:5″
Read the whole passage, sunshine (Judges 19-20).
This illustrates that the act of rape was so heinous, so awful, so unspeakable in the mind of the Israelites that they were willing
to rise up on behalf of a stranger to seek the immediate punishment of the parties responsible. Did you hear anything about property in the text?
No? That’s because it had nothing to do with money and everything to do with moral outrage. Does this sound like the kind of people
that would hand over their daughters to their rapists? No. Obviously not.
“2 Samuel 13:14-32
Absalom has his boys kill a dude for raping his sister. Hardly a story of moral principle.”
In time without prison systems, you had two choices:
1. Allow the prepatrator to be loose (to possibly reoffend).
2. To bring them to justice.
Amnon wasn’t just “some dude”. He was the heir to the throne, the oldest son of King David.
If you had paid attention you would have seen my point: even the highest in the land, the wealthiest among
the Isrealites could not avoid punishment for rape.
Justice for all not just for the rich and powerful is not a moral principle? Please. You know better than that.
Says that Jerusalem will be sacked and women raped. The Jews did this ALL THE TIME. Not that they deserved to get it back, I’m just saying. Again,
not a moral principle.”
1. once again demonstrates that this is a culture that would not stand for rape.
2. “The jews did this all the time”? I’ve demonstrated by now that they did no such thing.
3. This is further evidence of their aversion to rape and their refusal to stand for it.
“2 Corinthians 7:1
This actually says nothing whatsoever about sex.”
Excuse me. That should have read 2 Corinthians 7:1-2. My apologies for the confusion. Let us read it together, shall we?
“1. Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear
of God. 2Make room for us in your hearts; we wronged no one, we corrupted no one, we took advantage of no one.”
Paul is speaking specifically about sexual impropriety and not making such crude advances (and pretty clearly at that).
Read on a bit further. Specifically this part:
“16.Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil, 17Learn to do good; Seek justice,
Reprove the ruthless, Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow.”
Far from your little handwave about him being ‘sated’ this is a call to the Israelites that he doesn’t WANT dead animals. What he wanted
was for them to act justly and to take care of the meek and helpless. They are being called them to stop using sacrfices and instead focus on
actually being good to each other. Which is a radically advanced concept at this time.
“As to massacres of children.
-1 Samuel 15:1-3″
Hold it right there, sparky.
1. The Amalekites sought to conquer the Hebrews utterly and tried on multiple occasions:
In Judges 3.13, together with the Ammonites, they assist Eglon of Moab. In Judges, 6: 3 and 6:12) they aid the Midianites and the children of the
East against Israel. It is because of this latest attempt that pushes Saul to wage total war upon them. A war that ended only when the Amalekite
king, Agag was slain.
2. Given that we keep hearing about them after this, it’s clear that no children or women or infants were harmed. It’s no wonder: the Hebrews
couldn’t afford to be seen as genocidal especially since they needed the numbers and trade alliances that required being trusted by their
neighbors and it’s hard to trust someone who kills children and wipes out cities.
“There’s also a passage that tells parents to stone unruly children to death. And one in ‘the law’ that gives the only penalty for a city the
worships a different god as the complete destruction of the city and the slaughter of everyone in it. I can find them if you like it.”
1. Deuteronomy 21:18-21 “child” in that passage is described as a violent drunk. That isn’t a little boy, that’s an adult (only denoted as child
to explain his relationship to the parents). An adult who gets drunk and hits people, including his parents and refuses to make amends. Nice
try. But next time? Read the actual passage.
2. Deuteronomy 7:12 & Deuteronomy 3:3-7: Considering that the Hebrews marched on those cities with pagan allies, it’s pretty clear that it had
nothing to do with them “worshipping a different god”. They attacked the Israelites and their allies provoking a defensive response.
Considering that said cities would flourish again generations later and even ally with the Israelites, it’s pretty clear the war stopped when
they were conquered and did not proceed into genocide as erroneously cliam.
“This is an evil book….”
I’ve demonstrated that isn’t case every single step of the way. So…strike one.
“….any philosophy based on it is evil”
The basis of that argument is your total scriptural illiteracy. A point which I’ve proven cleanly.
“and I’m willing to bet you’re a far better person than the god you believe in.”
Well that’s real sweet of you to say, Miso Soup.
Too bad, it’s based on arguments that I’ve debunked…strike three. You’re outta there!
You base your arguments on raw emotionality not reason, ideological necessity as opposed to naked fact.
Come on. I am certain that you are capable of being so much more. I’m willing to bet that you are a far smarter
person that the limitations of your particular worldview. How do I know? Because I know Atheists like Quentin Smith
and Julian Baggini. Like David Sloan Wilson and Tim O’Neil. Atheists who disagree with me categorically, but first seek to understand the object
of their disagreement and acknowledge both it’s wrongs and it’s rights. To be fair and to let logic (not demagoguery) guide them.
‘Jewish Publication Society Torah Commentary’
‘Marriage and Family in the Biblical World’ Edited by Ken Campbell
‘A History of Ancient Near Eastern Law’ Edited by Raymond Westbrook
‘Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did They Come From’ by William Dever
William Dever, the ‘biblical archaeologist’, joins your sources alongside the great Ken Campbell. Lovely.
It was a property crime because no one cared unless the girl was promised. If she wasn’t, you just paid a fee and married her. i wasn’t wrong. When the woman is raped in the city and doesn’t cry out, both are killed. That’s just what the passage says.
The rape of Absalom’s concubine is seen as a ‘lewd and outrageous act’ against Israel, and plus he cuts up her body after she dies. Again, this does not illustrate a moral principle. A rape happens, people respond to it like people will.
‘The Jews did no such thing’
Judges 21:10-24, in which everyone in Jabesh-Gilead, again including women and children, are massacred, and the Israelites take a bunch of virgin girls. I’m sure they just wanted to tell them about Yahweh.
There is nothing to indicate the child isn’t a young child except that the parents call him a drunkard, although the actual offenses for which he can be stoned to death aren’t entirely clear. And do you want to worship a god who supports stoning people to death for… anything, really?
With regard to pagan gods, I was referring to Deuteronomy 13:12-18. It’s not a historical event, it’s a matter of law. Yahweh commands that if you hear of a city worshiping pagan gods, you go to the city, you kill everyone in it, this obviously includes women and children, and you take the plunder and burn it all.
Everything you’ve said is making excuses. Your historical ‘evidence’ not doing much but saying ‘god supported this evil thing, but it wasn’t THAT bad’. I’m afraid you’ve done nothing to illustrate that this is not a profoundly evil book and a profoundly evil god.
“William Dever, the ‘biblical archaeologist’, joins your sources alongside the great Ken Campbell. Lovely.”
Well considering how wrong you were about Campbell, it should come as no surprise that you are so willing embarrass yourself again by impotently
flailing every which way to weasel your way out of this. William G Dever is a Professor of Near Eastern Archaeology and Anthropology at UA and has written over 25 books on the subject and has been cited by scholars secular and religious alike.
But enough of that. Why bash your lame duck tactics when I can sink my teeth into your outright silliness?
“It was a property crime because no one cared unless the girl was promised. If she wasn’t, you just paid a fee and married her. i wasn’t wrong. When the woman is raped in the city and doesn’t cry out, both are killed. That’s just what the passage says.”
No it wasn’t because everyone cared about what actually happened (which is the opposite of what you are doing–only caring about what happens in your odd little imaginary bubble). If she was raped the circumstances changed entirely (which has been repeatedly demonstrated in passage after passage) from if she was seduced by a cad. That is clearly said in the passage. Here let’s read it again:
“But if a man finds a betrothed young woman in the countryside, and the man forces (chazaq) her and lies with her (shakab), then only the man who lay with her shall die. But you shall do nothing to the young woman; there is in the young woman no sin deserving of death, for just as when a man rises against his neighbor and kills him, even so is this matter. For he found her in the countryside, and the betrothed young woman cried out, but there was no one to save her. If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes (taphas) her and lies with her (shakab), and they are found out, then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her (anah); he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days.” Deuteronomy 22:25-29
Compare that to:
“If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie (shakab) with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die.Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled (anah) his neighbour’s wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you” Deuteronomy 22:23-24
At no point in time, did forced sexual congress enter the equation. The danger was in leaving a young woman socially defenseless before a fuck and run creep. THAT is what the passage says. Ignoring a translation does not make it go away, Soup.
For those keeping track at home, please see my newest response when Soupy tried this one in the other post.
“The rape of Absalom’s concubine is seen as a ‘lewd and outrageous act’ against Israel, and plus he cuts up her body after she dies. Again, this does not illustrate a moral principle. A rape happens, people respond to it like people will.”
First off, you have mixed two completely different books together: Judges 19-20 and 2 Samuel 13:14-32. The former spoke of the crime perpetuated against the Concubine of the Levite (its the one with the body cutting) and Absalom’s story is in the latter (with vengeance being carried out against the Crown Prince Amnon for raping Tamar). Protip: if you are trying to convince people you are paying attention, instead of just ignoring all their points, it helps to actually keep your sources straight.
Secondly, No, it is seen as a horrifying act against decency itself (in both cases the offenders were Israelites themselves so claiming it was an “offense against Israel” is wrong right on it’s face).
Thirdly, Cutting up the body of a loved one and burying them at major points in a kingdom was an ANE act of supreme
devotion and (pay attention this important), an act of penance on behalf of the loved one performing the burial.
Fourthly, a crime was committed and the perpetrators refused to stand trial and more extreme measures were taken. Your attempt to dismiss it
as simply ‘people respond to it’ reveals just how hollow your responses have become. You don’t even try to justify your statement, you just leave it hanging there as if shooing away the facts will make them disappear. In other ANE cultures, they would have simply let the rape stand
and wouldnt have given two tosses about what happened to the Concubine.
“‘The Jews did no such thing’
Judges 21:10-24, in which everyone in Jabesh-Gilead, again including women and children, are massacred, and the Israelites take a bunch of virgin girls. I’m sure they just wanted to tell them about Yahweh.”
Wrong on two major counts, Chicken Noodle Soup:
1. The people of Jabesh-Gilead were Hebrews themselves. As such, even more protections were afforded them (*see my post on Female Servants and the nature of Mohar). Therefore, they couldn’t go raping their own.
2. Given that there were large numbers of survivors both male and female (not even counting those who fled the city), and that there is frequent mention of new settlements populated by both Benjamites and Gileads it’s obvious that there was no large scale massacre, merely a sacking of the city.
You know if you actually paid attention to my posts, it would save you alot of grief, chuckles.
“There is nothing to indicate the child isn’t a young child except that the parents call him a drunkard, although the actual offenses for which he can be stoned to death aren’t entirely clear.”
“Nothing to Indicate”? The fact that ‘kid’ drinking and fighting on it’s own is enough to point out that we have an adult offender here.
But very well, let’s dig into this one and see just how far you missed the mark:
The trespass in question was not a casual, slip-of-the-tongue curse or sass, but a deep-seated rebellion, an ongoing attitude of hatred that had to be dealt with severely. In other words, the punishment was not for minor infractions but for determined defiance.
There are several things to keep in mind about this particular sin and about this particular law:
The offense was ongoing and continuous. Deuteronomy 21:18 indicates that the punishment was only meted out after a persistent refusal to heed both father and mother and after all discipline had failed. The parents have tried to deal with their son in a loving, firm way, but nothing worked.
It was deep-seated crime. Verse 20 specifies that the son is stubborn in his rebellion. Not only is he recalcitrant, “he is a glutton and a drunkard.” This is not a case of a child who misses curfew or plays ball in the house. This a true menace, a adult child who is causing trouble in society and grieving his parents, to the point of endangering them physically and financially.
The punishment was not an impulsive act of anger or vengeance. Verse 19 says that the city elders had to oversee the case and determine the guilt of the child. It is only after the elders pronounced a sentence of death that the execution could take place. The law did not allow an angry parent to arbitrarily stone a child. A modern equivalent of this is when a parent sees news footage of his child committing a crime and subsequently turns the child in to the police. If parents know their child is acting in a way that endangers society, they are responsible to obey the civil authorities and report the crime.
The punishment was designed to preserve the nation. As verse 21 explains, the reason for this law was to purge evil from society and act as a deterrent to further rebellion. An adult, ANY adult who was actively and deliberately rejecting the laws of the land needed to be punished judicially.
Even then, the passage clearly points out that there were multiple occasions to deal with the problem peaceful even at a judicial level.
It’s right there, black and white, clear as crystal.
“And do you want to worship a god who supports stoning people to death for… anything, really?”
No, I worship God because he doesn’t support such an action, because the laws were designed for secular purposes, to regulate existing systems, because the quest for justice and truth comes first. As I said before,
ONLY in the case of premeditated murder was there the added stricture of ‘Do not accept a ransom for the life of the murderer who deserves to die’ (Num 35:31). What does that mean? It means that out of the almost twenty cases calling for capital punishment in the Old Testament, every one of them could have the sanction commuted by an appropriate substitute of money or anything that showed the seriousness of the crime. The invocation of the death penalty was a common feature in ANE cultures meant to indicate the seriousness of the crime without calling for the actual implementation of it in every case. In fact, there is little evidence that many of these sanctions were ever actually carried out in ancient Israel.
How about you? Do you wish to continue to cow-toe to a ideological narrative even your fellows would find to be an offensively silly caricature. A narrative which has reduced you to this state of blinded buffoonery in which a Theist has had to remind you of the difference between fact and opinion or between presenting evidence and simply going on blind faith?
“With regard to pagan gods, I was referring to Deuteronomy 13:12-18. It’s not a historical event, it’s a matter of law. Yahweh commands that if you hear of a city worshiping pagan gods, you go to the city, you kill everyone in it, this obviously includes women and children, and you take the plunder and burn it all.”
Wrong on four major points this time, Alphabet Soup. But first let’s read the passage (because I sorely doubt you did):
“12 If thou shalt hear say in one of THY cities, which the Lord thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;14 Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the Lord thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.17 And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the Lord thy God.” Deuteronomy 13:12-18
1. This is a command that is ONLY directed towards the Hebrews themselves (note the phrasing, for once in your life). Such
an act would have been seen as extremely provocative if used against foreign powers, leaving the Israelites devoid of allies when
they needed them the most. This was an act ONLY to be used against renegade Hebrew settlements that are in a state of civil war.
2. This is a command that ONLY directed a specific kind of rebellion. Note that the belligerents are called children of Belial. “Belial” is a Hebrew word that was formed from the combination of two other Hebrew words, pronounced bel-ee, meaning failure, and yaw-al, meaning to be valuable, was a term of scorn meaning to waste one’s worth. The word is used in the Old Testament (see The Older Testament) to describe people who were lawless brutes who rampaged around and raided other Hebrew tribes. In every single passage they are mentioned in plural, the end result is the same: a Hebrew group trying to screw over another Hebrew group. Whether that was rape (Judges 19:22), whether that was betraying their kinsmen to steal all they had (1 Kings 21:9-13) or even betraying their nation as a whole (2 Samuel 20:1-2). In other words, as much as the betrayal of their covenant stings, the most pressing concern is the very material problem of “HOLY CRAP STOP STABBING US YOU TEAM KILLING CHUCKLE FUCKS”.
3. This is a command to execute a tactic known as “Charam”. Charam is targeted destruction of material goods, symbols of rebellion, and military output. If you had read it you would know that the point of Charam is that you DONT take plunder. Their soldiers are made to surrender or die, disarmed, and people driven off from the city. All their possessions are gathered in one spot (usually their temple) and then incinerated. Nobody takes ANYTHING from there. The city remains a ruin. This is done to prevent repeat rebellions.
Given the IMMENSE waste of material, Charam is invoked in only the most extreme of circumstances.
4. But most importantly, before ANY of this is undertaken, the passage orders the Hebrews to research the situation diligently and consider their options (14) (remember, this is a war whose only gain is to stop a current raiding force, a war which has no gain for either side). As such, this passage is the “nuclear option” of it’s time. A scenario only to be used in the most extreme of circumstances.
So yeah, you’ve missed the point entirely and misrepresented the passage. Again. Not a big surprise.
“Everything you’ve said is making excuses.”
Oh? Pointing out your ignorance of their language, their culture, their history, and the passages themselves is ‘making excuses’?
Pointing out historical examples and providing evidence is “making excuses”?
You want, “making excuses”?
-Try handwaving historical evidence without engagement simply because you ‘don’t care’.
-Try dismissing linguistics data because you are too lazy to study anything outside your bubble and demand that an ancient
foreign culture be bent to your language and your comfort (because Heaven forbid you actually pick up a book).
-Try flailing away at scholars simply because you don’t have the wherewithal to actually list a cogent argument against their views
or provide a decent counterpoint.
-Try simply sticking your fingers in your ears and pulling ye olde ‘lalalalalala I can’t hear you’ whenever you have no answer.
In other words, Minestrone Soup: you want to see someone ‘making excuses’? Go to your bathroom and look in a mirror.
“Your historical ‘evidence’ not doing much but saying ‘god supported this evil thing, but it wasn’t THAT bad’.”
No, my evidence demonstrated that there was no ‘evil thing’ to begin with.
“I’m afraid you’ve done nothing to illustrate that this is not a profoundly evil book and a profoundly evil god.”
What I’ve illustrated, is that despite all your bluster, you have no knowledge of the book outside of soundbites you picked
up from web (which you didn’t bother to read fully if at all), you have no engagement with the historical record, and you lack the humility to admit either.
The only thing ‘profoundly evil’ in this entire situation, is the nonsense you’ve tried to inflict on this board and immense boredom you
have made me experience as result of your repeated failures to summon up even the ghost of an actual rebuttal.
“Jewish Publication Society Torah Commentary”
“Capital Punishment and Its Alternatives in Ancient near Eastern Law” by Edwin M. Good
‘A History of Ancient Near Eastern Law’ Edited by Raymond Westbrook
Again, I apologize for mistaking your sources. I wrote before I went to bed. Unlike your god, I don’t claim to be perfect. It was a cheap shot and I shouldn’t have taken it.
You have done nothing to address that the victim is stoned to death as well. This is not a sentence, not an invocation, both are taken out and stoned. This is what the bible says. Again, I don’t care much about history here. This is what people have believed the supposedly inerrant word of god actually says for 2000 years.
I’m sorry, every single translation of Judges 21:10 specifically mentions killing EVERYONE, including women and children. You can’t get out of this one. The Israelites are also commanded to ‘kill every male and every woman that is not a virgin’. What do you think they wanted those virgins for? In fact, after they give 400 virgins to the Benjamites, it turns out there isn’t enough punch-meat to go around so they abduct a bunch of women from Shiloh.
Let’s quote this and see.
‘If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his
father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and
rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge
the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.’
Where does it say that the child is older or that he’s anything more than unruly? Where is this impartial jury that you’re invoking? There is nothing about the elders ‘pronouncing’ guilt, the parents and the men of the town simply stone him to death. I can’t believe you’d defend this god.
In what way am I proceeding on blind faith? I’m not making thin excuses for an immoral book. I’m looking at the things it says, realizing it’s wrong, and rejecting it. It’s wrong about morality, it’s wrong about science, it’s simply wrong.
It’s fascinating how any time the bible clearly depicts god ordering the Israelites to massacre groups of people, you come up with a reason to say he actually didn’t.
I’m actually aware of the term Charam, and for your information it means to ‘destroy utterly’. Which is exactly what the law here orders the Israelis to do. I also agree with your definition of ‘children of belial’, but I don’t see anything in the passage to indicate that these towns are raiding other towns. And again, the bible is what I care about here. Your attempts at bringing context are cute but they do nothing to redeem the book.
-I don’t care much about historical evidence in this case because I’m dealing with a book as people have venerated it and believed in it throughout history, and the nightmarish things they’ve used it to justify. They still continue to use it to justify the repression of women and homosexuals. I’m really not interested in condemning the ancient Israelites for being barbarians, I’m interested in condemning a god who would do nothing to reform such a culture, and in people who would claim that god to be murderous. Believe it or not, I’ve heard most of these excuses before. They didn’t mean much to me then, either. Let’s deal with what the supposedly ‘good’ book says.
-Again, if you want the bible to be more accurately translated, get on it. The word ‘slave’ for instance, is used through many translations, and apart from claiming it to be a form of debt repayment, even though slaves are often referred to as ‘property’ to be passed down through several generations, you’ve done nothing to convince me that one human owning another is godly.
-Official apology for insulting your sources. Some are at religious universities, but they seem serious. I have provided counter-arguments with more substance than that.
-Don’t think I’ve ever failed to address any of the pathetic excuses you’ve made by ignoring them. If I have, please let me know which.
‘no ‘evil thing’ to begin with’
So you don’t think stoning people to death is an evil thing? Just in general? As a form of capital punishment? You don’t think god could have said ‘you know, there are more humane ways to do that, and also try boiling your water and washing your hands! And here’s electricity! And here’s what causes you to get sick!’
I’ve explained to you why I don’t much care about history in this case. I’m talking about the things a book says. If you can look into history and it turns out they weren’t evil, good for you! Most people throughout history have not done that. They take the book at face value and they end up doing horrific things. Also, I’ve actually read the entire bible. I was a Christian until I was 18. When I realized it didn’t make any sense.
Please, give me a point and I’ll be glad to respond to it. As long as you don’t submit it in the form of another ‘this word doesn’t mean that’ or ‘here’s a history lesson you don’t care about’ or claiming that Charam means something other than ‘utter destruction’. The verse even says to destroy the town so thoroughly that it can never be rebuilt!
And HOW does a person claim with a straight face that the church never burned people? I won’t say you didn’t claim that they never tortured and/or executed heretics, but I feel like you’re getting there.
“Again, I apologize for mistaking your sources. I wrote before I went to bed. Unlike your god, I don’t claim to be perfect. It was a cheap shot
and I shouldn’t have taken it.”
No. Unlike God, you lack wisdom and a love of truth. The only reason you are apologizing is because you got caught lying outright and kicked in the teeth when you tried to pull that well poisoning bullcrap.
Let see what nonsense you have for us this time:
You have done nothing to address that the victim is stoned to death as well. This is not a sentence, not an invocation, both are taken out and
stoned. This is what the bible says. Again, I don’t care much about history here. This is what people have believed the supposedly inerrant word
of god actually says for 2000 years.”
Ignoring my posts doesn’t make them do away, princess. I addressed ALL of that. Allow me to prove it:
*From my previous post*:
If she was raped the circumstances changed entirely (which has been repeatedly demonstrated in passage after passage) from if she was seduced by a
cad. That is clearly said in the passage. Here let’s read it again:
“But if a man finds a betrothed young woman in the countryside, and the man forces (chazaq) her and lies with her (shakab), then only the man who
lay with her shall die. But you shall do nothing to the young woman; there is in the young woman no sin deserving of death, for just as when a man
rises against his neighbor and kills him, even so is this matter. For he found her in the countryside, and the betrothed young woman cried out,
but there was no one to save her. If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes (taphas) her and lies with
her (shakab), and they are found out, then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall
be his wife because he has humbled her (anah); he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days.” Deuteronomy 22:25-29
“If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie (shakab) with her; Then ye shall bring them
both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die.Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that
city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath
humbled (anah) his neighbour’s wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you” Deuteronomy 22:23-24
At no point in time, did forced sexual congress enter the equation. The danger was in leaving a young woman socially defenseless before a fuck and
run creep. THAT is what the passage says. Ignoring a translation does not make it go away, Soup. * previous post ends*
Furthermore you have the cheek to believe you would get away with outright ignoring the fact that my counter to your argument comes from the Bible
itself (the book of Numbers) and yet you still claim “This is what the bible says”. That exact passage proves that your tortured ‘interpretation’
is yet another load of crap.
*once again, from the post that Soup is hiding from whilst underneath his ‘Thundercats’ Blanket*
Only in the case of premeditated murder was there the added stricture of ‘Do not accept a ransom for the life of the murderer who deserves to die’
(Num 35:31). What does that mean? It means that out of the almost twenty cases calling for capital punishment in the Old Testament, every one of
them could have the sanction commuted by an appropriate substitute of money or anything that showed the seriousness of the crime. The invocation
of the death penalty was a common feathure in ANE cultures meant to indicate the seriousness of the crime without calling for the actual
implementation of it in every case. In fact, there is little evidence that many of these sanctions were ever actually carried out in ancient
Israel. But in the case of what we today call first-degree murder, there was never to be offered or accepted any substitute or bargaining of any
kind: the offender had to pay with his or her life. *Previous post ends*
So, because I’ve come to understand that your reading comprehension appears to be stuck on the third grade level, lets review :
1. The woman was not raped but rather was a consentual partner in the act of adultery.
2. The crime was considered severe in the ANE, but as the Book of Numbers points out it would most likely be remediated without loss of life.
“Get out of this one?” Really, Red Bean soup? If you had actually read ‘every single translation’, then you might have noticed
something when you got to the Jewish one that pretty much demonstrates that I don’t need to ‘get out’ of anything. But first, let me point out
exactly what you are ignoring when I challenged you on
this last time.
1. The people of Jabesh-Gilead were Hebrews themselves. As such, even more protections were afforded them (*see my post on Female Servants and the
nature of Mohar). Therefore, they couldn’t go raping their own.
2. Given that there were large numbers of survivors both male and female (not even counting those who fled the city), and that there is frequent
mention of new settlements populated by both Benjamites and Gileads it’s obvious that there was no large scale massacre, merely a sacking of the
As such, if you had read the Jewish translation notes, you would noticed that the targets were all adults connected with military output and
and fommenting rebellion (hence the words ‘mored’ and ‘moredet’ (children who rebelled from God) which refer to male and female rebels
respectively ). So one of two things:
1. You didn’t bother reasearching the passage.
2. You found this translation and ignored it.
Further, The Benjamites, the Shiloah and the Gileads were all allied against Israel during this particular war, so it made sense to send these
women who had nothing to live amongst their allies.What would have them do? Live in the ruins of their city waiting for maruaders to come pick
Even when you try the moral outrage card, you prove that your morality is highly dubious.
‘If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his
father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders
at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and
rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge
the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.’
Where does it say that the child is older or that he’s anything more than unruly? Where is this impartial jury that you’re invoking? There is
nothing about the elders ‘pronouncing’ guilt, the parents and the men of the town simply stone him to death. I can’t believe you’d defend this
Once again, IGNORING MY REBUTTALS DOESNT MAKE THEM GO AWAY, DINGUS:
The trespass in question was not a casual, slip-of-the-tongue curse or sass, but a deep-seated rebellion, an ongoing attitude of hatred that had
to be dealt with severely. In other words, the punishment was not for minor infractions but for determined defiance.
The offense was ongoing and continuous. Deuteronomy 21:18 indicates that the punishment was only meted out after a persistent refusal to heed both
father and mother and after all discipline had failed. The parents have tried to deal with their son in a loving, firm way, but nothing worked.
It was deep-seated crime. Verse 20 specifies that the son is stubborn in his rebellion. Not only is he recalcitrant, “he is a glutton and a
drunkard.” This is not a case of a child who misses curfew or plays ball in the house. This a true menace, a adult child who is causing trouble in
society and grieving his parents, to the point of endangering them physically and financially.
The punishment was not an impulsive act of anger or vengeance. Verse 19 says that the city elders had to oversee the case and determine the guilt
of the child. It is only after the elders pronounced a sentence of death that the execution could take place. The law did not allow an angry
parent to arbitrarily stone a child. A modern equivalent of this is when a parent sees news footage of his child committing a crime and
subsequently turns the child in to the police. If parents know their child is acting in a way that endangers society, they are responsible to obey
the civil authorities and report the crime.
The punishment was designed to preserve the nation. As verse 21 explains, the reason for this law was to purge evil from society and act as a
deterrent to further rebellion. An adult, ANY adult who was actively and deliberately rejecting the laws of the land needed to be punished
Even then, the passage clearly points out that there were multiple occassions to deal with the problem peaceful even at a judicial level.
I pointed out EXACT verses, to answer each and every one those. Stop pretending you didn’t see it, you aren’t fooling anyone.
“In what way am I proceeding on blind faith? I’m not making thin excuses for an immoral book.”
No, what you are doing is making excuses to maintain your ridiculous meta-narrative even when:
1. Passages are placed right in front of you that you attempted to misrepresent.
2. Scholarly sources clearly prove you wrong.
3. Your OWN argumentation is revealed to be wildly in error.
I’ve been the only one here to consistently cite sources, to offer deeper analysis , heck, I’m the only
one utilizing logic here.
All you’ve offered is emotional appeals, hand waving, and a level of historical illiteracy that would make Kirk Cameron blush.
Your nonsense is the textbook behavior of someone exhibiting fanatical blind devotion to ideology over fact.
” I’m looking at the things it says, realizing it’s wrong, and rejecting it.”
Except I’ve demonstrated that you HAVEN’T looked at what it says. So don’t pull that crap, boo boo.
“It’s wrong about morality, ”
Yet you have repeatedly failed to demonstrate this.
“it’s wrong about science”
The Bible doesn’t make scientific statements, Chunky Soup.
Good grief, is there even a single moment when you aren’t lying through
“it’s simply wrong.”
If it’s ‘simply wrong’, why haven’t you been able to nail a
It’s fascinating how any time the bible clearly depicts god ordering the Israelites to massacre groups of people, you come up with a reason to say
he actually didn’t.”
Because you have yet provide a single example of this, chuckles.
“I’m actually aware of the term Charam, and for your information it means to ‘destroy utterly’. Which is exactly what the law here orders the
Israelis to do. I also agree with your definition of ‘children of belial’, but I don’t see anything in the passage to indicate that these towns
are raiding other towns. And again, the bible is what I care about here. Your attempts at bringing context are cute but they do nothing to redeem
1. Yeah, given your performance thus far, I seriously doubt you had any clue about the word before I told you. Protip: in Hebrew you ‘kill’
humans, you ‘destroy’ unliving matter, so you just shot yourself in the foot, again. You may want to look into a wheelchair.
2. Oh really? So the fact that the term itself only appears in reference to towns which have raided others, that the term itself denotes a raider,
and that the passage clearly indicates betrayal of the Hebrew people doesn’t ‘indicate’ that they were raiding other towns.
3. If you ‘care’ about the Bible then why in the nine hells are you ignoring the passages I pointed out? This isn’t extra-biblical stuff, this
comes from the book itself. Thus, you ignoring it, only reinforces my point.
4. You know what’s adorable? That you continually fail to provide any evidence that the Bible needs redemption. Sorry, but your misrepresentation
of the text is not gonna fly with me.
“I don’t care much about historical evidence in this case because I’m dealing with a book as people have venerated it and believed in it
You are looking at something that throughout history…but you want to ignore historical evidence?
Well, thanks for putting your blind fanatacism on display once again, soup.
“and the nightmarish things they’ve used it to justify. They still continue to use it to justify the repression of women and homosexuals. ”
The same done by Atheist regimes throughout history. So don’t pull that ‘they used it justify’ crap and then employ a double standard.
“I’m really not interested in condemning the ancient Israelites for being barbarians”
Nice one you bigotted dimwit. Explain to me how a people who had one of the largest kingdoms in the ancient near east, whose trade routes spanned
a continent, whose writings filled the land and whose philosophical treatises influenced distant cultures were ‘barbarians’
“I’m interested in condemning a god who would do nothing to reform such a culture, and in people who would claim that god to be murderous.”
In other word you are condemning a diety of your own design. Because you’ve certainly failed to demonstrate that
A. the culture needed ‘reforming’ (all said from the comfort of your bizarre anachronistic bubble).
b. that God was murderous.
“Believe it or not, I’ve heard most of these excuses before. They didn’t mean much to me then, either.”
Yeah, because you ignored rebuttals then too.
They aren’t ‘excuses’ if they are true and demonstrate that the accuser is in error (hint: they are and you most certainely are).
“Let’s deal with what the supposedly ‘good’ book says.”
If you had done that at any point in this conversation, you would
have realized how insipid your arguments are.
“Again, if you want the bible to be more accurately translated, get on it. The word ‘slave’ for instance, is used through many translations, and
Ifapart from claiming it to be a form of debt repayment, even though slaves are often referred to as ‘property’ to be passed down through several
generations, you’ve done nothing to convince me that one human owning another is godly.”
1. Considering that the accurate translations already exist, have been listed as a source here,and have been pointed out to you MULTIPLE times,
your attempt to pass the buck here is completely worthless.
2. Once again, you repeat this same statement even though I rebutted it previously (and more recently, I did so again **see my last post**).
Short version: your entire screed falls apart because you tried to ignore the passage itself, which would explain why you keep insisting it said
things that it did not.
“Official apology for insulting your sources. Some are at religious universities, but they seem serious. I have provided counter-arguments with
more substance than that.”
This statement labors under the delusion that any of your arguments up to this point had any substance at all.
“Don’t think I’ve ever failed to address any of the pathetic excuses you’ve made by ignoring them. If I have, please let me know which.”
….you have to be kidding me. There is no way you could possibly be this flagrant a liar. You want to see posts you’ve ignored? Start with this
post and work your down (beginning with your ‘slavery’ rant)
Now THAT is pathetic.
“So you don’t think stoning people to death is an evil thing? Just in general? As a form of capital punishment?”
Hey Captain Anachronism you may want to step out of the Dolerian.
They didn’t have a prison system until many centuries later. Before then, it was the fear of death which
kept people from committing crimes. But as I’ve established (despite your best efforts to hide your head in the sand and pretend it isn’t there,
even when a crime was committed it was more likely
that there would simply be some form of public penance (usually in the form of a fine).
“You don’t think god could have said ‘you know, there are more humane ways to do that”
Considering that their legal codex clearly demonstrates more humane treatments, I’d say he already did.
“and also try boiling your water and washing your hands!”
Their laws of purity and cleanliness already cover this, dumbass.
“And here’s electricity! And here’s what causes you to get sick!’”
Considering it was religious people who made those discoveries in the pursuit of God, I’d say he did
Was there a point to this rant, or were you just trying your damndest to look like a bigger tool than you already are?
“I’ve explained to you why I don’t much care about history in this case.”
Yes, because it doesn’t fit your insane ideological meta-narrative and the idea of actual study makes your widdle head hurt.
“I’m talking about the things a book says. If you can look into history and it turns out they weren’t evil, good for you!”
Which I’ve demonstrated already.
“Most people throughout history have not done that. They take the book at face value and they end up doing horrific things.”
Newsflash, French Onion Soup: people throughout history do horrific things because they WANT to do horrific things either due to mental illness.
or personal hunger for fame and power. Mark David Chapman shot John Lennon and many people stupidly blamed his reading of ‘Catcher in the Rye’.
Does that mean that the book was responsible? Of course not. Chapman was a disturbed man who wanted to be famous so he killed a great musician.
Same case with the Bible. Get with it.
“Also, I’ve actually read the entire bible. I was a Christian until I was 18. When I realized it didn’t make any sense.”
1. Given your poor performance here, I seriously question when and in what circumstances you read the Bible.
2. Given your behavior here I’m willing to be that you were raised in a fundamentalist denomination. You exhibit all the signs:
lack of context study, the literalism, the single minded devotion to a cause, and the need to ignore evidence.
3. Interesting how two lives can be so different: I was raised in a non-religious household, I was an Atheist until I was in my early 20s, when
one my college professors impressed upon me the need to study and understand religions in order to better get a grip on my own philosophical
outlook. I began to research and journey about and then I became a Christian because I realized it made alot of sense. That came with study and
that came with an open mind.
“Please, give me a point and I’ll be glad to respond to it. As long as you don’t submit it in the form of another ‘this word doesn’t mean that’ or
‘here’s a history lesson you don’t care about’ or claiming that Charam means something other than ‘utter destruction’. The verse even says to
destroy the town so thoroughly that it can never be rebuilt!”
I’ve done nothing but given you points to respond to and you have failed miserably. You ignore what you don’t agree with and then pretend
that it didn’t happen. Case in point: all those things you wrote in that above screed? I answered them previously. Get to it.
“And HOW does a person claim with a straight face that the church never burned people?”
Because they didn’t. More to the point it was because they couldn’t. The kind of power to execute people in the Middle Ages only existed in the hands of the Lords of the land. That is a historical fact.
One of many you’ve ignored.
So…another post. Another abject failure to come anywhere close to getting a clue on your part.
“Jewish Publication Society Torah Commentary”
“God’s Philosophers” by James Hannam
I actually wasn’t talking about the history of the church when I mentioned things like rape, slavery, and the burning of witches, I was talking about the bible. People are good and bad no matter who they are, but the things in that book are evil. There were plenty of southern slaveowners using it to justify slavery.
Also, I haven’t got any requirement to answer for atheists. It’s not an ideology, it’s a single stance on a single issue. There are lots of atheists, such as objectivists, with whom I don’t agree in the slightest except about that one thing.
“I actually wasn’t talking about the history of the church when I mentioned things like rape, slavery, and the burning of witches, I was talking about the bible.”
Which is even worse for because the bible:
-First off, the “slavery” you speak of in the OT is not the European colonial system or even Roman system. It is a form of indentured servitude which ends when the debt is paid (similar to cleaning dishes in a restaurant). It is not life long. Furthermore doesn’t even support THAT system. It regulates a pre-existing system (a secular system)…and manages to subvert it to turn people away from slavery.Even in the earliest parts of the OT, the laws surrounding slave ownership was made deliberately difficult and unprofitable to encourage people to avoid keeping slaves (this was to make the Hebrews seperate from the pagan practices of their neighbors). If that wasn’t enough, in the NT, in the Letter to Philemon, Paul pays for the freedom of a Roman slave and asks his brethren to turn away from the ways of the world around them and embrace as equals before God.
-I already addressed why your “Rape” argument was nonsense above.
-There were no witches burned in the Bible. You’d know that if you actually read it.
“Also, I haven’t got any requirement to answer for atheists. It’s not an ideology….”
…hard to believe given your responses thus far.
Furthermore, when you understand why your same “burnings, rapes, and genocide” scenario doesn’t work for Atheism (outside of your limp handwaving), you will understand why it can’t be used against Christianity.
Not all OT slavery was indentured servitude. In fact most slaves were owned and passed down as property, except for Jewish slaves, who were only kept for 6 years.
‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and
members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your
property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can
make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow
It was different for Hebrew slaves.
‘If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in
the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the
woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man
shall go free.
But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’
then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to
the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be
his servant for life.’
Isn’t that nice? You can enslave him forever by holding his wife and children hostage, and then you put a spike through his ear and he’s yours. Clearly the law of a benevolent deity.
Hey, ever wanted to sell your daughter into sexual slavery?
‘If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he
must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners,
because he has broken faith with her.’
You’re also wrong about the bible on rape:
‘If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.’
You aren’t entirely mistaken about death being a punishment, but its only when the woman is already owned and it becomes a property crime.
‘If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to
death–the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for
help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge
the evil from among you.’
As far as I know there were no witches burnt in the bible, but we did get the old saw ‘Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live’, and ‘witch’ began to be used as a synonym for ‘political opponent’.
Ah excellent, you are actually engaging scripture. Let’s begin shall we?
This is why I put that Torah guide up. Protip: Ancient Near Eastern Languages being translated to English
require careful study and an understanding of the language.
Case in point:
While the Hebrews were permitted to pass on foreign bondservant on as an inheritance to the next generation until their debts were repaid (which is the meaning of ‘olam’ in Leviticus 25:46–which is translated ‘perpetually’ or ‘life’). See many in many the gentile cultures selling oneself
into servitude was one method of canceling a debts. In these cultures, the servitude is until the master and his first heir die. In Israelite
culture, the foreigners debt must be paid before he is freed. As such, the text does not mean they were permanent possessions, and it explains why
they do not go out at the seventh year of release or the Jubilee as the Hebrews do (the reason being that their debts are not automatically
cancelled but rather they have to work until it is paid).
However, the Law of Moses still maintained their personal legal rights relating to physical protection (Exodus 21:20-21, 26-27), freedom of
movement, and access to liberty (Deuteronomy 23:15-16). Any bondservant purchased from the Gentiles had the right to flee their master, and receive the protection of the Law of Moses if they did so:
Further, Importantly, the Law of Moses made no provision for any slave trade. It was permissible to purchase men and women who voluntarily sold
themselves into indentured service, but not to sell them (Exodus 21:2, Leviticus 25:39, 42, 45, Deuteronomy 15:12). Taking men and women and
enslaving them against their will, or selling them into slavery, was expressly forbidden on pain of death (Exodus 21:16, Deuteronomy 24:7).
But I’m getting ahead of myself
Isn’t that nice? You can enslave him forever by holding his wife and children hostage, and then you put a spike through his ear and he’s yours.
Clearly the law of a benevolent deity”
What is ‘clear’ here is the fact that you CLEARLY have no understanding of ANE culture or history outside of ridiculous soundbites.
So allow me educate you:
There are three scenarios an Indentured Servant will encounter before and after their debt is paid.
Case 1: Single in, Single during, Single out. No issues here. The master supported the servant during the tenure with room, board, medical care,
etc; and the servant provided labor in exchange for this stability, provision, and legal protection. Economic exchange transaction.
Case 2: Married in, Married during, Married out (with or without kids). Seems to be a bit economically burdensome on the master/owner, especially
if it was a large family that drove the Hebrew to have to sell himself! There is no stipulation that the wife/kids have to be ‘servants too’, yet
the master has to feed, clothe, house, provide medical care, etc for them out of this own pocket during their tenure (“The master would have been
responsible for the maintenance of the slave’s wife and children throughout the period of his service.”. But this certainly recognizes the
importance of emotional attachments (i.e., the servant and his own family), and supports these values out of the pocket of the owner. Following so
Case 3. Single in, Married during, Single out (with or without kids). This is the one that seems odd at first glance to us. Let’s make some notes:
The wife is obviously a servant too, since a free woman wouldn’t have to stay behind and the offspring of free and slave was free in the ANE (“If
a slave, either male or female, married a free person, the children they had together would be free.”
This means that the owner paid for the servant girl himself (at typical prices of at least one-third to one-half of all the labor output the male
slave would have generated in his 6-year tenure), or, if she was born in the household, then the owner had been paying all her support costs for
years and years, with little economic value–given marriage age was around 12-14 (the support costs being considerably more than the male slaves
output). (“If, however, his wife has married him during his servitude, obviously by the permission and through the provision of his owner, both
the wife and any children born to such a union must remain with the owner when the “temporary” slave claims his freedom of the seventh year.”
Now, normally, this male servant would have to pay the mohar (bride-price, bride-present) for the wife, but he obviously doesn’t have such
resources in his circumstances. This means that the bride-price must be paid after his release.
Now listen up. He has two options in this case:
1. First, he could invoke the clause of ‘permanent servitude’ and stay forever in that situation (with security, familiarity, family);
2. Secondly, he could negotiate a marriage/mohar payment (roughly translated, ‘bride price’, but we’ll get to that when I skewer next your
section) and “get” his wife/kids. (Slaves did have to pay betrothal fees: “… they were capable of owning property and could pay betrothal money or
This second possibility could take several forms:
1. We know that a person could continue to work/provide services inside a household (as a post-servant) and earn the bride-price, like Jacob did
for Rachel and Leah (7 years for each).
2. We know that, in the ANE, future services could be accepted by an owner as payment today (“More frequently (than a slave using their property
to buy freedom), the manumitted slave was bound to support the former owner during the latter’s lifetime. A slave is ceremonially manumitted and
bound by a support clause but is also said to have ‘redeemed himself,’ which suggests that his future services were seen as a payment in fact, if
not in law.”, so the owner could allow the family to exit, on the basis of a services ‘promissory note’.
3. The post-servant could move out (assuming he had a place to go, obviously), arrange these terms, and take his wife/kids to himself . [In many
cases of ‘regular betrothal, the bride-to-be moved in with the groom’s family long before the marriage was consummated, especially if she was in
childhood. This often occurred right after the ‘contract’ was signed, and since we have already noted both ‘promissory notes’ and ‘installment
plans’, this is not implausible an arrangement at all.)
4. Some of the ‘lavish gifts’ the master was supposed to send him out with at his release (see Deut 15.15, and the discussions above/below) could
be used as a/part of a bride-price to get the process going.
So there you go. Nice try though. Let’s see what else you got.
Now that skewering I told you about? It’s coming, but first we got to talk about ‘Mohar’ (remember?)
This mohar was once thought of (and still called in the literature) as a ‘bride price’, but more recently it is understood as a ‘bride-present’
(since sometimes the bride got to keep it herself). It is a payment quite common in ANE cultures made by the father of the groom, to the father of
the bride a deposit delivered to the parents of the bride to promote the stability of the marriage and to strengthen the links between the
families of those being married.The father of the girl negotiated a bride-price with the groom or groom’s father, with an expected amount the baseline, the mohar habbetulot, set at fifty shekels, but with no upper limit. Just to give you an idea of scale: This amount in the ANE at that time would have been the value of 5 years of a hired person’s labor. However, depending on the circumstances of the families, this bride-price (and counterpart, the dowry of the girl) could be paid in installments,
in non-cash items such as clothing (Judg 14:8-20), and/or in services (hence the previous Jacob working for Rachel and Leah example)
A fiancé could compound for the payment of the mohar by service, as Jacob did for both his marriages (Gn 29:15-30), or by accomplishing an
appointed task, as David did for Mikal (1 S 18.25-27) and Othniel for Calab’s daughter (Jos 15:16 = Jg 1:12).
Both the bride-price and the dowry could be paid in installments until the first child was born, at which time the balance of both payments was
due. The marriage was legally finalized, and the mother assumed the legal rights of a wife.
With me so far? Excellent.
Now some families could not pay the dowry, but still wanted their daughter to marry and not lose face when they accept the much needed mohar. So
this law exists to allow this. In short,it allows an Israelite father who is poor or in debt to hand over his daughter as concubine-wife of the
household head or his son. The only difference between her and a wife is that she begins her life as just a house servant, whereas a wife is
served not the server. If her husband is not satisfied, he may resell her to her family, but may not sell her to a stranger. If he takes another
wife, he must leave intact all the rights of the first. If he intends her to be his son’s wife, he must treat her as a daughter of the family.
Furthermore, the Torah is quite specific in that such a Concubine-Wife has ALL THE RIGHTS OF A FREE WOMAN and must not be treated as a male slave
would be. None of the back breaking work but simple household duties and she is being paid for it directly. If he mistreats her or picks another
wife? Her ex-husband still has to pay for her care and treat her as a wife (because HE broke contract) unless he convinces her family to take her
back (usually in the form of him paying them to take her off his hands and anul the contract).
Short version: Context. Know it, before you open your trap.
“You’re also wrong about the bible on rape:
Given your track record so far, I wouldn’t bet the house on that.
First off, lets talk about the words “chazaq”, “shakab”, “anah” and “taphas” . Chazaq means ‘to take by violent action or force’. Shakab means ‘to
lay with/on. “Anah” means ‘being shamed by losing one’s virginity outside of marriage’ . ‘Taphas’ ? It means ‘ to handle with skilled hands or to stroke with skilled hands (as an instrument or…a lover)’ .
Now, with this in mind…let’s read the passage in it’s entirety:
Get it yet? Let me spell it out for you:
Notice that in verse 25 a different word is used, namely chazaq. If the author wanted to imply that the woman in vv. 28-29 was being raped, he
could have used this same word chazaq; especially since this is the word he uses in the preceding verses to refer to an actual rape incident. The
fact that he didn’t use it should further caution us from reading rape into verses 28-29. ‘Taphas’ isn’t a rape attempt: it’s an act of seduction,
literally stroking the girl like an instrument. Thus this law isn’t about marrying a rapist, but rather forcing a ‘baby daddy’ (to use a modern
term) to own up to seducing and possibly impregnating a young woman. This is a law designed to keep such a cad from simply abandoning her and
continuing to cause trouble and protecting young women from honeyed lips and seductive men.
“You aren’t entirely mistaken about death being a punishment, but its only when the woman is already owned and it becomes a property crime.
Wrong again and for the same reason: this passage using the same verbage. She was seduced, it was consensual.In every case where chazaq (rape) occured, the victim was never punished, it was the rapist (the male) who got it between the eyes.
“As far as I know there were no witches burnt in the bible, but we did get the old saw ‘Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live’, and ‘witch’ began to be used as a synonym for ‘political opponent’.”
Wrong. Wrong . Wrong.
1. The word used for ‘witch’ is actually ‘chasapah’ (or ‘poison maker’), which refers to a person who murders others by slipping stuff into their
food and drink and the like. There are many ways to kill a man, but for the Israelites, leaving someone to die such a horrible death in such a
sneaky manner was an absolutely unacceptable practice (a practice the Israelites were victims of due to their neighbors making use of assassins. Hence why they were so on edge about it).
2. It specifically points out a very, VERY specific kind of criminal. You couldn’t accuse anyone just off the cuff of being a ‘Chasapah’ (no more than you could randomly accuse someone of being a serial killer) because of how grave the implications were and the kind of evidence needed for that charge to stick.
3. At no point in time was that word used as a synonym for ‘political opponent’, stop pulling stuff out your ass.
‘A History of Ancient Near Eastern Law’ Edited by Raymond Westbrook
The fair treatment of slaves. In the first place, I can’t believe anyone would defend a book that supports slavery at all, but this is a bullshit claim. Please stop using the word ‘bondservant’ like it makes things better. It doesn’t this is slavery.
You mean the one in which a master is PERMITTED to beat their slave and receives an unspecified punishment as long as the slave recovers after a day or two? Well yes, I’m sorry, clearly these slaves were treated extremely well. Or Exodus 21:26-27, in which a slave is allowed to go free if their owner destroys their eye or knocks out a tooth. Yes, keeping the beatings to the fleshy bits is profoundly moral. I do apologize. And Deuteronomy 23:15, in which you should not return an escaped slave to their master. Sounds like you ought to keep those slaves on a tight leash. I’m sorry, but these are some pathetic defenses. Will it get better?
No. You’re somehow trying to argue that there’s something moral about a god (I’m not judging an ancient culture here, they didn’t know any better,) who thinks it’s EVER okay to own another person. So you think, for instance, in case 1, that it would be alright for me to ask a person to work for me without paying them? In ANY situation? You think this is a valid economic exchange?
This is a whole lot of tortured argument I don’t give a shit about. Do you think it is right, EVER, for one person to own another, or to extract work from another without pay, even if a debt is owed?
As to your linguistic faffery about rape, please do a new translation of the bible and make this clear. I don’t care what you think it says in the original language, I care about the translations we have that people at least something like you claim to be the inerrant word of god. And Deuteronomy 22:23-24 clearly states that both the ‘rapist’ whatever you think that means in the context, and the victim are to be taken and stoned to death. You’re just openly in denial about that one, unlike the other stuff, which you’ve at least tried to make cases for.
About witches, I have heard that the original word is ‘poison maker’. Again, don’t care. Are you denying that the verse was used to give the church license to immolate whoever they didn’t agree with? i never claimed that the word was synonymous with political opponents in the bible, but by those who believed it it was used as a word for anyone they didn’t like.
To be honest, I’m also not that interested in the ‘historical context’. Which is what I hear from Christians a lot when they want to justify something immoral that the bible says. This is not referred to as a marriage arrangement and you have given me no reason to regard it as such. The verse says ‘when a man wants to sell his daughter into slavery’, not, ‘when a man wants his daughter to marry but cannot afford the bride price’. I’m dealing with what the bible says, not with what you want to make it say after droning on about history.
As to your sources, you know Ken Campbell was an evangelist, right? Not exactly an academic.
“The fair treatment of slaves. In the first place, I can’t believe anyone would defend a book that supports slavery at all,
I’m not. Because it doesn’t. Stop trying to weasel out of the fact that history doesn’t bend to your puerile ideological needs.
“Please stop using the word ‘bondservant’ like it makes things better. It doesn’t this is slavery.”
I use ‘bondservant’ because that is the literal translation, slappy.
You mean the one in which a master is PERMITTED to beat their slave and receives an unspecified punishment as long as the slave recovers after a day or two?”
No, the point is he is NOT permitted to beat his bondservant. His servant is freed and the assailant must pay him as if he had gone through the full contract. The only way it would be permissible is if the bondservant broke any of the same rules as an Israelite. Did you even read the text? No? What a surprise.
“Or Exodus 21:26-27, in which a slave is allowed to go free if their owner destroys their eye or knocks out a tooth.”
…as opposed to staying with the abusive jerkwad as was mandated by other ANE powers? As opposed to not being compensated
for pain and suffering? Do you even see what nonsense your argument has devolved into?
“And Deuteronomy 23:15, in which you should not return an escaped slave to their master.”
Wait a second: are you actually bashing them for NOT returning someone who ESCAPED from an abusive boss? One second
you are ignoring whole tracts of writing to justify your rants (poorly, even if that) accusing them of things
they didn’t do, now you are outright bashing them for stuff they DID do which any sane man would call moral and just
(freeing a servant in an abusive household)?
You’ve got nothing left in the tank, and it’s showing.
“No. You’re somehow trying to argue that there’s something moral about a god (I’m not judging an ancient culture here, they didn’t know any better,) who thinks it’s EVER okay to own another person. So you think, for instance, in case 1, that it would be alright for me to ask a person to work for me without paying them? In ANY situation? You think this is a valid economic exchange?”
“This is a whole lot of tortured argument I don’t give a shit about. Do you think it is right, EVER, for one person to own another, or to extract work from another without pay, even if a debt is owed?”
Either you are being purposely dense or you have the memory of a Mayfly: the whole point of this servitude is that THEY ARE BEING PAID. That’s how they eventually pay off their debt. What you thought they were just earning brownie points? That’s been the entire point. This is getting real sad, Soup Can.
“As to your linguistic faffery about rape, please do a new translation of the bible and make this clear. I don’t care what you think it says in the original language, I care about the translations we have that people at least something like you claim to be the inerrant word of god. And Deuteronomy 22:23-24 clearly states that both the ‘rapist’ whatever you think that means in the context, and the victim are to be taken and stoned to death. You’re just openly in denial about that one, unlike the other stuff, which you’ve at least tried to make cases for.”
Faffery? Really? Oh I am going to enjoy this:
1. Well excuse me Captain Anglocentrism. So sorry that we all do not bow to your petulant need to have all the worlds works translated and mangled into your native tongue. Excuse us all for hoping that you would do the oh so hard task of getting a damn study guide and devoting yourself
to actually understanding something outside of your little bubble.
2.You don’t care about the original language because you know it demonstrates how thin and puny your argument is. So like every other time in this chat you’ve elected to hand wave it away claiming that there is no reason to study a collection of writings written in multiple languages, over centuries of time, unless it is written in 21st century English. If your other statements had not proven so earlier, this would been the one which convinced me that you could never be a student of history or linguistics.
3. It’s not what I ‘think’ it means, its what the passage says. Stop pretending that reality doesn’t apply to you. I expect more from an Atheist.
4. Only in the case of premeditated murder was there the added stricture of ‘Do not accept a ransom for the life of the murderer who deserves to die’ (Num 35:31). What does that mean? It means that out of the almost twenty cases calling for capital punishment in the Old Testament, every one of them could have the sanction commuted by an appropriate substitute of money or anything that showed the seriousness of the crime. The invocation of the death penalty was a common featured in ANE cultures meant to indicate the seriousness of the crime without calling for the actual implementation of it in every case. In fact, there is little evidence that many of these sanctions were ever actually carried out in ancient Israel. But in the case of what we today call first-degree murder, there was never to be offered or accepted any substitute or bargaining of any kind: the offender had to pay with his or her life. Denial? Look in a mirror, sunshine.
“About witches, I have heard that the original word is ‘poison maker’. Again, don’t care.”
Right, because facts and evidence? Obviously not your forte. You prefer emotional pleas
and ridiculous appeals to stuff pull out of your hinder.
“Are you denying that the verse was used to give the church license to immolate whoever they didn’t agree with? i never claimed that the word was synonymous with political opponents in the bible, but by those who believed it it was used as a word for anyone they didn’t like.”
1. Since you apparently missed it the first time (more likely trying to pretend it doesn’t exist) let me reiterate my first statement on the subject:Explain why the Church officially stated (very early in its history, mind you) that belief in the reality of night-flying witches was heresy because there was no such thing as an actual broom riding, curse casting witch (The Canon Episcopi). Explain why Pope Innocent VIII decried ANY kind of physical punishment for supposed “witchcraft” and cautioned anyone (even those outside the faith) to simply investigate and preach as their only recourse (so as to prevent people from panicking before natural phenomenon). Explain why the church banned Malleus Maleficarum (putting it on the index) and why the two authors Heinrich Kramer and James Sprenger were censured by the Church ( and in fact, Kramer was excommunicated for writing it three years after the book was published). The point is the Church didn’t immolate anyone.
2. Even if it WANTED to it couldn’t. Why? Because matters of life and death fell into the power of Feudal Lords and they were loathe to hand over the power to carry out executions over to anyone, let alone the Church.
I’m not denying anything, because there is nothing to deny.
“To be honest, I’m also not that interested in the ‘historical context’…..”
…because the evidence keeps kicking booting you in the teeth, I know. You know I’ve debated YECs that were less fanatical in their hatred of facts than you.
“This is not referred to as a marriage arrangement and you have given me no reason to regard it as such.”
Right because translations, historical analysis, hermeneutic analysis and ANE comparisons over culture and time?
Oh yeah…that’s not a whole mess of reasons. /sarcasm.
Quit acting indignant, split pea soup: the only ‘reason’ you don’t ‘regard it as such’ is because you have no response. You just
handwave it away and pretend that will just make my rebuttal disappear into the ether. That ain’t happening. Welcome to the real world, slim.
“The verse says ‘when a man wants to sell his daughter into slavery’, not, ‘when a man wants his daughter to marry but cannot afford the bride price’. I’m dealing with what the bible says, not with what you want to make it say after droning on about history.”
No, you are dealing with what Soup WANTS the Bible to say, not what the actual text says.
I’ve already shown you the translation and exactly what it means and how it plays out, step by step. I’ve given you
context and even cross cultural analysis.
I find it hilarious that you hand wave ‘history’ as some abhorrent thing droning in your ear, is if you were lazy student
in the class of a teacher you didn’t like. Sorry, Tomato Soup, but history does not go away simply because you find it
inconvenient or because it punctures your silly, selfserving, meta-narrative.
“As to your sources, you know Ken Campbell was an evangelist, right? Not exactly an academic.”
Ken M. Campbell (associate professor of biblical studies at Belhaven College in Belhaven, Mississippi. M.A., B.D., Th.M. and Ph.D. from the University of Manchester) edited the book. The guy you confused him with is Ken L. Campbell, a Canadian Fundamentalist who died in ’06.
No cigar for you, bucko.
“Capital Punishment and Its Alternatives in Ancient near Eastern Law” by Edwin M. Good
“Galileo Goes to Jail and Other Myths about Science and Religion” by Ronald Numbers
I apologize for my mistake about Ken Campbell in the first place.
You think that the bible doesn’t support slavery? Really? Someone being owned by another person as property to be passed down to their children is not a slave? The bible says nothing about paying off debts, only that Hebrew slaves are to be kept only for a period of 60 years.
And here is the text of Exodus 21:20 -21 from the NIV. You’re once again making up extraneous material in one of the most desparate (and, I have to admit, impressive,) attempts I’ve ever seen to make the bible something other than evil:
‘Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.’
I think that a god who is supposedly the ultimate source of moral authority would forbid slavery at all. He’s clearly alright with it, and apparently so are you, and he’s alright with people beating their slaves.
Where in this does it forbid beating? Are you really in this much denial? Usually people just scream CONTEXT which is sort of what you’re doing.
As to your claim about slavery being indentured servitude, this is absolutely not supported by biblical evidence. Slaves were property that were passed down to a man’s children. You can make things up that makes it ‘indentured servitude’, but that ain’t what the bible people believe says. They are referred to as property. I’m very sorry, but you’re deluding yourself.
You’re still going on and on about history. I honestly don’t care much about history, (and by the way, isn’t the bible the main source of our information about early Israeli culture? I may be mistaken about that) I care about what the bible and says and what people throughout history have believed that it said, and the things they have used it (rightly) to justify.
Were those four long paragraphs intended to argue that the Church didn’t burn people? What about the inquisitions? You can’t be serious about that. I know you want to be a good defender of the faith, but you must be joking. Pope Innocent VIII did not endorse Maleficarum, but neither did he discourage the investigation of ‘diabolical sorcery’. Quite the opposite, in fact. The Spanish Inquisition continued under his reign. You need to read actual history. He actually appointed Tomas de Torquemada as Grand Inquisitor.
‘I’m not denying anything, because there’s nothing to deny’.
Well, that says it right there. I’ll just leave with this link to a list of people famously executed as heretics by the Roman Catholic Church (and others).
I’m sorry, you’re trying to use half-assed historical examples to pretend that a god who apparently killed everyone on earth in a flood. Again, I don’t particularly care if you think he actually did, you’re probably intelligent enough to know he didn’t but people throughout the years have believed that this god is some kind of moral authority, the same as you do.
I like history. But what exactly is its relevance to a book that supports the kind of foul things the bible does, when people have believed the ‘mistaken translations’ and used them to justify horrors for hundreds of years? And then you claiming that this book, and the church based on it, are forces for good? Astounding.
I’m interested in what the bible says. I don’t blame this tribe of Bronze Aga barbarians for doing things that we now consider evil. I do blame the god who supposedly supported their barbarism, and you for pretending it’s some sort of moral authority.
“I apologize for my mistake about Ken Campbell in the first place.”
No harm done.
“You think that the bible doesn’t support slavery? Really? Someone being owned by another person as property to be passed down to their children
is not a slave? The bible says nothing about paying off debts, only that Hebrew slaves are to be kept only for a period of 60 years.”
You keep repeating this argument, pretending if I haven’t rebutted it into oblivion. But very well, I see you have amassed new mistakes so I’ll
1. “60 years”? “Nothing about paying off debts” I’m hoping that’s a typo (else I think my ‘Mayfly memory’ comment may have been more apt a
descriptor than I thought: “At the end of every seven years you must declare a cancellation of debts.This is the nature of the cancellation: Every
creditor must remit what he has loaned to another person; he must not force payment from his fellow Israelite, for it is to be recognized as “the
Lord’s cancellation of debts.” Deuteronomy 15:1-2
2. If that is “slavery” then what would you call garnishment of your wages enforced by credit bureaus of the 21st century or mandatory pro-bono
reconciliatory hours of work enforced by many corporations? Not clear enough for you? Let get some working definitions:
had no kinship rights, no marriage rights, no personal legal rights relating to physical protection and protection from breach of contract, no
freedom of movement, and no access to liberty. Because the individual was property in the truest sense, the master was not accountable in any way
for his treatment of the individual. He was no more accountable for beating or killing his slave than he was for breaking his own chair. The
individual could be bought or sold at the discretion of the master. Chattel slavery was always involuntary, coercive, and terminal (the individual
was a slave until death, with no means of obtaining liberty).
They sold themselves into the ownership of a master to whom they owed money (or a master who paid off the debts they owed to another person), and
payed off their debt with service. Indentured servants under the Law of Moses held kinship rights, marriage rights, personal legal rights relating
to physical protection and protection from breach of contract, freedom of movement, and access to liberty by paying their debt (either through
service, or with money).
Thus it is clear to see that Deutoronomy was describing Indentured Servitude, not the slavery you were claiming.
4. As I said previously, while the Hebrews were permitted to pass on foreign bondservant on as an inheritance to the next generation until their
debts were repaid (which is the meaing of ‘olam’ in Leviticus 25:46–which is translated ‘perpetually’ or ‘life’). See many in many the gentile
cultures selling oneself into servitude was one method of canceling a debts. In these cultures, the servitude is until the master and his first
heir die. In Israelite culture, the foreigners debt must be paid before he is freed. As such, the text does not mean they were permanent
possessions, and it explains why they do not go out at the seventh year of release or the Jubilee as the Hebrews do (the reason being that their
debts are not automatically cancelled but rather they have to work until it is paid).
movement, and access to liberty (Deuteronomy 23:15-16). Any bondservant purchased from the Gentiles had the right to flee their master, and
receive the protection of the Law of Moses if they did so.
I don’t know why you tried this again, but once again I’ve demonstrated that you didn’t even read the relevant passages, let alone understand
“And here is the text of Exodus 21:20 -21 from the NIV. You’re once again making up extraneous material in one of the most desparate (and, I have
to admit, impressive,) attempts I’ve ever seen to make the bible something other than evil:”
“Extraneous Material”? It’s from the same book, doofus. You want to talk ‘desperate’? Try the fact you are trying repeat this same stuff that I
debunked not one post earlier. I have to say you have failed to prove the Bible ‘evil’, but you have succeeded in proving yourself everything
Bit I digress…..
“‘Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if
the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.’
First off, cast your bleary eyes to Leviticus 25:43:
“You shall not rule over him with rigor, but you shall fear your God”
This passage serves as a warning to the prospective debt holder that mistreatment of the bondsman will not be tolerated.
Secondly, let’s look at that passage. The word for ‘beat’ used here is “pode”. Why is this important? Because in the vast majority of the OT the
word for beat is “kabash” (to assault or to subdue with force). “Pode”. however, means “to redeem before others” (not to be confused with “goel”
which refers to redemption before God). It is a word with very limited use and all of them involved settling debts (either monetary or criminal).
Anyone who transgressed harshly enough against the law can opt to ‘redeem’ themselves via public punishment or monetary compensation. Why is this
important? Because it means that the act the debt holder is doing is not a random burst of violence but the public punishment of bondsman who
transgressed the law. The same punishment that could befall any freeman and for the same reasons. Since the servant is the personal responsibility
of whomever holds the debt, it falls to that person to carry out the punishment which will settle the criminal charges.
As such, it does not support the random beating of bondsmen, but rather offers them protection from sadistic bosses or harsh courts.
So your argument goes down like a barge made of bagels. Again.
“I think that a god who is supposedly the ultimate source of moral authority would forbid slavery at all. He’s clearly alright with it, and
apparently so are you, and he’s alright with people beating their slaves.”
As to your claim about slavery being indentured servitude, this is absolutely not supported by biblical evidence. Slaves were property that were
passed down to a man’s children. You can make things up that makes it ‘indentured servitude’, but that ain’t what the bible people believe says.
They are referred to as property. I’m very sorry, but you’re deluding yourself.”
Considering that I just proved it wasn’t slavery, pointed out in the text why it isn’t slavery, and pointed in the text exactly why he isn’t okay
with people beating their servants, pointed out exactly why and where it forbid beating, and demonstrated that their concept of ‘property’ was a
term of responsibility for servants actions I’m not exactly tooting my own horn when I call your above statement officially busted and sunk. I
didn’t even bother with really going into context, I just read the passage back to you (once again demonstrating your penchant for ignoring things
which clash with your world view).
Considering that you are both repeating statements that I already refuted, claiming things do not appear in the passage (when in fact, I have pointed right to them), then it becomes plainly obvious the only person deluding themselves is the one trying to ignore what is right in front of them in black and white.
“You’re still going on and on about history. I honestly don’t care much about history”
Yeah given how badly it’s been going for you, that doesn’t surprise me.
“(and by the way, isn’t the bible the main source of our information about early Israeli culture? I may be mistaken about that)”
By Rob Halford’s Sunglasses, man! The Hebrews did more than simply write the Torah and grow beards. They had other books (histories, cultural
observations, poems, songs, etc) and other cultures wrote about them (and visa-versa).
“I care about what the bible and says and what people throughout history have believed that it said, and the things they have used it (rightly)
1. If you cared “about what the Bible says” you’d actually have paid attention to the translation notes and the very things I pointed out in the
2. A simple study of history finds that people are quite capable of twisting anything to serve their own ends and justify their own selfish
desires. The gentle humanistic ideals of 18th century France were twisted by the Jacobins to support their bloody Reign of Terror. This is not a
fault of the Bible.
“Were those four long paragraphs intended to argue that the Church didn’t burn people?”
Four paragraphs that you obviously didn’t read if you are still claiming that.
“I know you want to be a good defender of the faith….”
No, what I am defending is history, what I am defending is fact, what I am defending is allowing the
evidence to speak for itself.
So far the only one blindly defending a ideological position is you.
“Pope Innocent VIII did not endorse Maleficarum, but neither did he discourage the investigation of ‘diabolical sorcery’. Quite the opposite, in
fact. The Spanish Inquisition continued under his reign. You need to read actual history. He actually appointed Tomas de Torquemada as Grand
Hold on: let me repeat a quote of yours,
Given that statement I find it hilarious that you claim that I need to ‘read actual history’ when all I’ve been doing
is point out historical fact.
But hey, you go ahead and keep pretending that scholarship doesn’t apply to you. I’ll just keep dropping the hammer.
1. The only thing Pope Innocent encouraged was for local priests to investigate and debunk supposed witchcraft. The Church had enough
problems with the rumblings of the reformation and the continued posturing of tempermental local lords, that last thing they needed was
panic and witch hunts which would only add fuel to the fire.
2. Are you high? Pope Innocent VIII and Torquemada depised one another. Tomas de Torquemada was far more local to Spanish crown than he was the
church, and that led to intense loathing between the two men. Furthermore, your historical illiteracy is showing again: The Spanish monarchy had
asked the pope to set up the Inquisition but the crown kept a firm hold on its activities. They selected who would be the Inquisitor General and
remained personally involved as well. It was King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella who appointed Tomas de Torquemada there from 1483 until 1498.
“‘I’m not denying anything, because there’s nothing to deny’.
Well, that says it right there. I’ll just leave with this link to a list of people famously executed as heretics by the Roman Catholic Church (and
Your link doesn’t work.
But here’s a tip:
look at every single person you claim was ‘executed by the RCC’.
Look at their trial record and tell me if there are any among them that WERENT
sentenced to death by a SECULAR court.
The Church could do alot of things, but sentencing people to death was something they were unable to do (see the above example)
“I’m sorry, you’re trying to use half-assed historical examples to pretend that a god who apparently killed everyone on earth in a flood…”
Considering those examples have been supported by secular scholars and have demonstrated how wrong you are, I’d say the only half ass thing here
is your sad half-ass “defense” if you can call it that.
Also: The Genesis narrative was a parable used to explain the Problem of Evil and to explain the philosophical concepts of personal responsibility
before God. Of course given your inability to read passages held right in front your face, it’s no wonder you can’t tell the difference between
the different books of the Bible.
“Again, I don’t particularly care if you think he actually did, you’re probably intelligent enough to know he didn’t but people throughout the
years have believed that this god is some kind of moral authority, the same as you do.”
Yes and the wonders we achieved in academia and in social justice are a testament to that.
How about you?
And then you claiming that this book, and the church based on it, are forces for good? Astounding.”
“I like history.”
You ‘like history’?
*hits the replay button*
…if you backpeddaled any more you’d have circumnavigated the globe by now.
“But what exactly is its relevance to a book that supports the kind of foul things the bible does..”
It’s relevance is that it proves that said book does no such thing and you have been proven false on every single sentence.
“when people have believed the ‘mistaken translations’ and used them to justify horrors for hundreds of years? ”
Funny how I don’t see you making that same claim for the horrors justified via Atheistic rhetoric. The Stalinist Purges?
the Killing Fields? The slaughters at La Cabana? I could on….
After all, your own presupposition supports you blaming atheism for those atrocities.
See, you know for a fact that not a single crime you could list had anything to do with the Bible. You know that the cause and the ultimate
justification of those horrors came from those who cared nothing for the Book and were influenced only by their hunger for power. So for the same
reason you would reject the claim that atheism justified the Reign of Terror, then you would have to reject the claim that the Bible justified any
of the evils you could list.
That and the fact I demonstrated in the above post how wrong you were about what the Bible supports. =)
“I’m interested in what the bible says. I don’t blame this tribe of Bronze Aga barbarians for doing things that we now consider evil. I do blame
the god who supposedly supported their barbarism, and you for pretending it’s some sort of moral authority.”
1. ‘Bronze Age Barbarians’? Oh yeah, a people who had one of the largest kingdoms in the ancient near east, whose trade routes spanned
a continent, whose writings filled the land and whose philosophical treatises influenced distant cultures, really sound like
‘barbarians’./sarcasm. Of course given the fact you yourself admitted total ignorance of their intellectual history, it doesn’t surprise me you’d
actually crap out a stupid statement like that.
2. You have not ONCE made a solid case for any “evil” acts in the Bible. In fact, I’ve repeatedly demonstrated that you haven’t even READ the darn
thing half the time, with the other half being little more than empty accusations, both of which I’ve disproven.
3. Following that, it’s pretty clear that your entire objection is based on brute ignorance as opposed to an actual cogent response to
anything approaching reality.
You are not ‘interested in what the Bible says’. you are only interested in feigning outrage and pretending to have a clue.
So far, I’ve demonstrated that irregardless of whether or not you agree the Bible is a moral authority, it has done NOTHING you’ve accused it of
or contain anything you’ve accused it of containing, or supporting anything you accused it of supporting.
“The Spanish Inquisition” by Henry Kamen
“Jewish Publication Society Torah Commentary”
Did you miss the bit where I said we should stop shitting up Spoony’s comment section? APBadger2@yahoo.com.
I already sent you an email to that effect. **See my response to you under that post, please**
You might want to re-send, I got nothing. And also, let me make it clear once again that I don’t care (in this case) about what ‘historical context’ you can pull out of your ass. We aren’t talking about history. We’re talking about what a book says. I think the book is pretty much all made up. If you want to write a new version of the book so that the god character in it doesn’t order people to massacre entire cities, doesn’t kill everyone on earth, turn people into pillars of salt, doesn’t sacrifice himself yo himself, and isn’t okay with slavery, be my guest.
Until then, I’m really only concerned about the things it says right now. If you think a book that says you can own someone as property and pass them on to your children is moral, then this religion of yours has you so mixed up, so bereft of your humanity and dignity that you don’t know what you’re saying. But please, send further responses to my email. I’ll be glad to talk with you about it.
**I’ll add this response to my email when I re-send. But since you chose bring up a whole slew of nonsense here, I’ll post it here as well.**
“You might want to re-send, I got nothing.”
10-4. I will re-send with updated info. Please check your spam folders (just in case).
Subject line will read ‘Heads up, Wonton Soup’.
“And also, let me make it clear once again that I don’t care (in this case) about what ‘historical context’…We aren’t talking about history.”
Then why do you make frequent appeals to history? If you don’t care about ‘historical context’ why do you constantly try to (erroneously)
bring up supposed ‘crimes’ which took place in the past?
The only reason you now ‘don’t care about history’, is because your sad attempt at revisionist clap trap failed miserably when I demonstrated
clear evidence which proved you wrong. You got caught and now you are trying to back peddle.
“We’re talking about what a book says.”
…and I’ve demonstrated EXACTLY what the book in question says. The problem isn’t what it says, the problem is that YOU tried to
make it say something it didn’t. Sorry, pookie, but thanks to the existence of a little something called ‘A TRANSLATION GUIDE’
and a fairly new practice called ‘READING THE DAMN BOOK’ your attempt failed and you ended up looking like a bigger clown than you did
before (which honestly wasn’t that much of a leap in your case).
“I think the book is pretty much all made up.”
Well, considering that you think that history doesn’t matter (when it doesn’t serve your purpose), that ignoring rebuttals is a valid response,
and that scholarship is trumped by ignorant emotional rants and childish tantrums….I don’t think anyone would mistake your thoughts on the truth
or falsehood of the Bible as having any weight.
“If you want to write a new version of the book so that the god character in it doesn’t order people to massacre entire cities…..”
No need. He didn’t. But please, dont mind me: keep pretending you don’t see almost three posts worth of rebuttal
knocking down your door. =)
“…doesn’t kill everyone on earth,”
I take it you must find Plato’s Allegory of The Cave to be absolutely horrifying then.
After all, you seem to be unable to differentiate between allegorical texts meant to
to illustrate a philosophical point (which the book of Genesis is) and historical texts
(like the Book of Joshua). Pure literalism, you definitely were a fundie before.
Protip: When you actually read Midrashic texts, they point out which is which. A fact
which your lack of study deprived you of.
“turn people into pillars of salt”
God didn’t turn Lot’s wife into a pillar of salt, it was a side effect of the power brought down on
Sodom and Gomorrah. She was warned how dangerous it was and she chose to stop and look anyway. This is like blaming
Oppenheimer for incinerating you because you ignored his warnings and ran out naked towards a nuclear
Once again, your inability to read is pathetic.
“doesn’t sacrifice himself to himself”
So you would prefer that he doesn’t share the pain and suffering of humanity, doesn’t take upon himself
our grief and our sorrow, that he doesn’t demonstrate
an unbreakable link of love towards his creations and the ultimate
equality of all humans?
This entire time you’ve ranted about how ‘evil’ God was and now you want him to be selfish?
I’m not sure what’s worse: your ignorance or your outright hypocrisy.
“and isn’t okay with slavery, be my guest.”
You know that isn’t the case. I’ve already rebutted that over and over again, your only response being to ignore it.
Stop embarrassing yourself.
“Until then, I’m really only concerned about the things it says right now.”
If that was the case, then you would have stopped a long time ago. I demonstrated
clearly what it said. A long line of scholars I cited demonstrated what it said.
You chose to ignore that and instead plug your ears and play that sad ass
‘If I ignore the facts, they’ll go away!’ tactic.
It didn’t work, princess. Deal with it.
“If you think a book that says you can own someone as property and pass them on to your children is moral…”
Once again you seem to think that pretending that my rebuttals don’t exist makes them go away
and somehow ,perhaps through some form of alchemical metamorphosis, makes your little revisionist crap true.
Sorry, but in the world of functioning adults, when you repeat a statement that has been proven false, it remains false until you prove otherwise.
I revealed your statement to be a load of BS. Thus, you have to prove otherwise.
” then this religion of yours has you so mixed up, so bereft of your humanity and dignity that you don’t know what you’re saying.”
My religion has ME mixed up?
Let me tell you about my religion, Broccoli and Cheese Soup. My faith has given me a greater sense of discipline and focus then I have ever known.
My religion has given me a greater drive to study and learn about the world (and a greater humility about relationship to the world) then
I had ever known. It has inspired me to seek logic not emotional satisfaction and to put reason before personal bias. My spirituality has given me
the courage and strength to stand up for social justice, to confront oppression, to advocate for those forgotten by the selfserving society
which surrounds us, to stand up for all people (even those who disagree with me), to speak out against the depredations of the powerful in the
face of mockery and pain…even in the face of death (and believe you me, I’ve come damn close, this broken body of mine is a testament to that).
My religion has made me more human and more aware of the dignity of all humans then I ever was before. Far from mixed up, it has given me
Let me tell you about someone whose ‘mixed up’. Let me tell you about yourself. Someone who has lied outright, ignored challenges to your
thinking, and sacrificed your dignity, your intellectual credibility, for the sake of maintaining your ideological haze. Your feigned ‘moral
outrage’ is especially repulsive, because you’ve demonstrated that you have no moral compass. You have absolutely no problem with any tactic no matter how deceptive or false or pathetic as long as you can try to avoid responsibility for your statements. You came onto this comment section
of an entertainment website, hijacked it to try and push your views on others and demean a whole group of people, thought that no one would call
you on it. But when I did, you flailed and whined, and demonstrated just how empty a mind you have.
Now usually this would be the part where I would return the volley in the same direction. But the truth is, when I was an Atheist, I would NEVER
have behaved as dishonestly as you have. I never would have allowed myself to sound as ignorant and as dismissive of presented evidence as you
have. I would have confronted it. I would have pushed back with evidence of my own. I would have answered citations with citations. Sources with
sources. Studying the situation from language to history to what color socks they wore in the presented statement. I debated religious people
practically on a weekly basis and never once would I have even dreamed of behaving as pathetically myopic as you have. In fact, I know that most
Atheists would not act as irrationally as you have and would be disgusted at the total sham your tried to perpetrate.
You see, it isn’t Atheism that ‘mixed you up’. No, Soup. YOU are ‘mixed up’ because you choose to be mixed up. You are a lying tool whose bigotry
has blinded you….and yet, you chose to remain that way.
You are to Atheists what Fred Phelps is to Christians: a fool masking himself in the robes of a viewpoint, without any idea what it means just to
satisfy your own sad, shattered ego.
You have my pity. I hope our continued discussion will clear the air for you a bit.
Calm down. I have nothing against you. Your religion, sure. Your confusion is in thinking that a bronze age book helps you be a good person.
‘why do you make frequent appeals to history?’
In the context of the events described in the bible, I haven’t. In the context of people who have believed in it throughout human history, I’ve talked about that. But very few things in the bible are verifiable historically in the first place.
‘A TRANSLATION GUIDE’
Again, you’re mistaking my point. The book, as people have believed in it since it was put together, has said terrible things, and still does. I don’t particularly care what was said in the original language, as I’m not interested in extracting any ‘deeper truth’ from a story of bronze age shepherds raping and looting and pillaging across the Ancient East. Your attempts to apologize for the horrific things this god of yours did have been uniformly pathetic. Especially when the bible clearly says that women and children were massacred, you go on to claim that people lived there later, so they couldn’t have been. In the first place if the bible says with no caveats (as it in fact does) that a group of people were massacred I have no reason to believe otherwise. As for you claiming that people lived there afterwards, is it not conceivable that some escaped the massacre and returned to rebuild? As is often the case?
‘ignorant emotional rants’
I have never once engaged in an ‘ignorant emotional rant’. I apologized for my comment about your sources but beyond that I’ve engaged with you rationally.
I’m now aware that I’m speaking with a ‘moderate Christian’, which is good.. You’re at least bound to be reasonable. Although I’ve actually never heard the flood described as allegorical. The creation myth yes, the flood no. In what way is it allegorical? This is a matter of curiosity, not an attempted insult. Contrary to what you may believe, I actually enjoy the bible quite a bit. I’m just mortified that people would take it seriously.
‘god didn’t turn lot’s wife into a pillar of salt’
So he couldn’t have stopped it? Your comparisons are inept; Oppenheimer is not an all-powerful spiritual entity with complete control over time and space, otherwise I’m sure he would have intervened to stop people being killed by a nuclear explosion. I know I certainly would have. Speaking of Sodom and Gomorrah, I’m guessing you subscribe to the ‘hospitality’ interpretation? That it wasn’t an issue of god punishing sexual deviancy? Although your god definitely killed children in that instance, by the way. And you actually believed that happened? Not that it was allegorical?
‘you want god to be selfish?’
I don’t see anything so wonderful about the supposed ‘sacrifice’ of Jesus. In the first place, it wasn’t a sacrifice. If you told me that I could be beaten, tortured, and murdered, and that it would eliminate all war forever, and I could know that with absolute certainty, I would do it. If I got to be GOD forever afterwards, I would still do it, but how the fuck is that a sacrifice? Also, why was there a need for a sacrifice? Because people are some fruit? Or do you believe that to be allegorical? Even if you believe sin came into the world some other way, why was a sacrifice necessary? What is this obsession your god has with blood? Couldn’t he have just… fixed it? You know, with his magic?
And no, frankly, I don’t want anyone to sacrifice themselves for me. I didn’t ask for it and I don’t want it. That’s disgusting.
‘you know that isn’t the case’ (slavery)
Again, if you would like to change what the bible says, please, honestly, do a new version. I’m all for that. The versions we have in English are pretty unambiguous about what a monster the OT god character is, and those are the versions people have believed in, usually without any reference to the original texts. If they’re better, fine. If they’re not, fine. I don’t really care either way, because I see no reason to believe any of it.
William Lane Craig may be an intellectually dishonest charlatan, but at least he doesn’t pretend that the OT god didn’t support slavery or demand the murder of children. We haven’t even addressed Abraham and Isaac, which is pretty unambiguously evil.
‘you are to atheists what Fred Phelps is to Christians’
You know, it’s interesting that I get the same abuse from pretty much every Christian I’ve talked to. I’m telling you how I feel about your book and why your attempts to rationalize the things it says in plain English don’t much impress me. I’ve made no comment about you as a person, except that you were morally confused about this book. I’m sure you’re a perfectly good human being. That’s the point. You don’t need this ridiculous mythology to be that. As a moderate Christian, you’ve clearly worked quite hard to reconcile a modern, secularist morality with the ancient brutality of the book and god you believe in. My only real problem with people like you is that your presence legitimizes the crazies.
***OK. Pay attention. I’m only going to ask this once: do you want to continue this here or via email? Your choice.
Personally? I’m getting a little pissed off at seeing an increasingly large wall of text unrelated to the riffing of
the above bad Tom Hanks movie, taking up virtual real estate. But I’ll keep hammering down as long as you keep posting this same
crap here. What say you? ***
“Calm down. I have nothing against you. Your religion, sure. Your confusion is in thinking that a bronze age book helps you be a good person.”
1. I am very calm. In fact, I’m bored out of my skull.
2. Oh, is that why you said I was ‘mixed up’, and that I was bereft of my ‘humanity and dignity’? You are like a wannabe tough guy at a bar who
gets in someones face, gets punched in the nose and suddenly cries out ‘hey man, I wasn’t against you, I was just playin!’.
3. Considering that it has and you’ve repeatedly failed to demonstrate that it doesn’t, it seems to me you are the one confused. Or willfully
“‘why do you make frequent appeals to history?’
In the context of the events described in the bible, I haven’t. In the context of people who have believed in it throughout human history, I’ve
talked about that. But very few things in the bible are verifiable historically in the first place.”
1. Oh really? Is that why you continually attempted to refer to wars the Israelites had with other tribes, only to get smacked down by moi?
2. Then, someone should really tell all those archaeologists and Ancient Near Eastern culture experts. Don’t worry, I’ll give you more sources to
chew on at post’s end, sweetums. Given the amount of records we have from surrounding peoples of the period, there is quite alot we can verify.
“‘A TRANSLATION GUIDE’
Again, you’re mistaking my point. The book, as people have believed in it since it was put together, has said terrible things, and still does. I
don’t particularly care what was said in the original language, as I’m not interested in extracting any ‘deeper truth’ from a story of bronze age
shepherds raping and looting and pillaging across the Ancient East. Your attempts to apologize for the horrific things this god of yours did have
been uniformly pathetic. Especially when the bible clearly says that women and children were massacred, you go on to claim that people lived there
later, so they couldn’t have been. In the first place if the bible says with no caveats (as it in fact does) that a group of people were massacred
I have no reason to believe otherwise. As for you claiming that people lived there afterwards, is it not conceivable that some escaped the
massacre and returned to rebuild? As is often the case?”
1. I’m not ‘mistaking your point’, because you didn’t have one in the first place. The book “as people believed in it since it was put together’
says NOTHING that you have claimed it has. That’s the point. THAT is why I put up the translations. When it was first translated the faithful
analyzed it via translation notes and study, leading great symposiums to the effect. Now in the 21st century, with whole books available with the
click of a mouse, you have no excuse for what you’ve been trying to pull: a defense via ignorance of the matierial itself.
2. Once again you hand wave away EVERYTHING I said not one day ago, to continue this bigoted meta-narrative of yours about the Israelites being
nothing more than ‘rapist shepards’ (when in fact, they had a sizable and literate kingdom, as attested to by their contemporaries of the time).
Do I have to repost every single rebuttal you’ve ignored up to this point, again? Do I have to, once again, point out that your reading of the
passages IGNORES those very passages (as I demonstrated when I posted them up, in their entirety, and revealed that they said NOTHING of the
3. What’s ‘pathetic’ is you continue to parrot this nonsense even though I pointed out
A. The clear fact that the words SPECIFICALLY refer to adult combatants.
B. That the command in the passage SPECIFICALLY speaks of eliminating the ability to fight not genocide.
So no…you DO have a reason to believe otherwise, because I proved YOU didn’t understand a word of it. There were no ‘caveats’ needed, it said it
4. Wait a minute, you were completely charging behind the the ‘brutal genocide’ bandwagon, and then you start backpeddaling? Oy vey. You are in a
sad state, duchess.
“‘ignorant emotional rants’
I have never once engaged in an ‘ignorant emotional rant’. I apologized for my comment about your sources but beyond that I’ve engaged with you
Oh yeah…hand waving away arguments by simply filling in text about how ‘you couldn’t believe anyone would believe such an evil x’ , decrying the
israelites as being ‘barbarians’ (without any substance behind your argument, mind you, and flying in the face of proof that they were anything
but ), ranting and raving about how evil everything in a passage is without once engaging the rebuttal? Oh yeah, you are a regular David
Quite kidding yourself.
I’m now aware that I’m speaking with a ‘moderate Christian’, which is good.. You’re at least bound to be reasonable. Although I’ve actually never
heard the flood described as allegorical. The creation myth yes, the flood no. In what way is it allegorical? This is a matter of curiosity, not
an attempted insult. Contrary to what you may believe, I actually enjoy the bible quite a bit. I’m just mortified that people would take it
1. I see myself as a just plain old devout Christian. But whatever floats your canoe, Sport.
2. It is allegorical because it is discussing a philosophical concept using a hypothetical situation, in a manner consistant with Rabbinical
Literature of the time and Midrashic Hermeneutics. In this case, we have a discussion of personal responsibility before God and individual
accounting for actions in spite of existing in a communal mileau (which was the standard of ANE life at the time). This is a big theme in
rabbinical literature and one which sees alot of upsurge and reanaylsis during the Babylonian Captivity and the Second Reconstruction period.
3. Given that you haven’t taken anything from the Bible to Linguistic Scholarship to History seriously, I think that you being ‘mortified’ is not
exactly an opinion anyone will listen to, Sopa de Platanos.
“‘god didn’t turn lot’s wife into a pillar of salt’
So he couldn’t have stopped it? Your comparisons are inept; Oppenheimer is not an all-powerful spiritual entity with complete control over time
and space, otherwise I’m sure he would have intervened to stop people being killed by a nuclear explosion. I know I certainly would have. Speaking
of Sodom and Gomorrah, I’m guessing you subscribe to the ‘hospitality’ interpretation? That it wasn’t an issue of god punishing sexual deviancy?
Although your god definitely killed children in that instance, by the way. And you actually believed that happened? Not that it was allegorical?”
1. No, the comparisons are solid. God gave a warning and Lot’s wife didn’t listen. In fact, she stayed and watched disobeying his order and
endangering her family by staying. She put herself in that situation AND she nearly got others killed due to her selfishness. Would you have
endangered others to rescue someone who was endangering others via their own selfish behavior?
2. What God was punishing was the violent, rapacious nature of the people of those cities. Sexual deviancy wasn’t the nature of this allegorical
narrative, it was an exploration of the concept of “chokmah” and “tebunah” (wisdom and discernment in determining a crime). The reason why there
was is much hairsplitting about finding innocent people in Sodom and Gomorrah, is that it reflects the concept of only punishing the guilty once
their has been enough evidence gathered to prove that there is no way they could be innocent of their crime. This is reflected in Israelite legal
proceedings. The idea is, that if even there is one shread of proof or a witness which calls into question the guilt of the party, then such
counsel MUST be brought up and studied before anything can move forward. Secondly it also explores the concept of “Arelach” or “obstructing the
way”, the idea that once a trial reaches its end the sentence must be carried out and anything else would simply be obstructing the course of
justice and endangering the community. Hence, what happened to Lot’s wife.
3. No, the wording specifically refers to young adults. Not children.
4. It was in Genesis, of course it’s allegory. At what point did I say otherwise?
” ‘you want god to be selfish?’
I don’t see anything so wonderful about the supposed ‘sacrifice’ of Jesus. In the first place, it wasn’t a sacrifice. If you told me that I could
be beaten, tortured, and murdered, and that it would eliminate all war forever, and I could know that with absolute certainty, I would do it. If I
got to be GOD forever afterwards, I would still do it, but how the fuck is that a sacrifice? Also, why was there a need for a sacrifice? Because
people are some fruit? Or do you believe that to be allegorical? Even if you believe sin came into the world some other way, why was a sacrifice
necessary? What is this obsession your god has with blood? Couldn’t he have just… fixed it? You know, with his magic?
And no, frankly, I don’t want anyone to sacrifice themselves for me. I didn’t ask for it and I don’t want it. That’s disgusting.”
1. Right, the pain, the suffering, the heavyness of heart, the painful death…that’s no sacrifice/ sarcasm
2. Also, he didn’t ‘get to be God’. He WAS God the entire time, dingus (what version of the Bible did you read, one that was handed to you on the
back of napkin in a greasy spoon?). The point is that he chose to take upon the human form with
and feel the pain of the world, to suffer to share in the pain of his creation to show that he was forever part of them, not just distant
figure , but one who was with them always.
3. You….really don’t understand a single word in the Bible do you? I know I keep seeing you type up this crap, but it still stuns me that anyone
could be this dense. The Creation Narrative was a discussion of the nature of human free will and our ability to choose our path in life, right
or wrong. Humans who wavered and feared and did not know how or should they approach God. The sacrifice was God bridging that gap, by showing
himself to humanity and sharing in their pain.
4. Not God’s obsession, but rather the nature of the human beast. Humanity inflicts pain and sorrow on itself,so Jesus allowed himself to become a
target of that pain to illustrate his union with Humanity.
5. Fix what? The problem is something inherent to Free Will. God didn’t abuse his power to make mankind come to him, so he chose to come to
mankind. Are you suggesting that you would prefer God to simply will away humanity’s power to choose? First you blame him for being an evil
murderer and now you WANT him to be a Tyrant?
Even in the bubble of your own wacked out bizarro-logic, that couldn’t have made sense even to you. You really are just grasping at straws at
“‘you know that isn’t the case’ (slavery)
“Again, if you would like to change what the bible says…….”.
For the fifth time, There is nothing to change, because I’ve demonstrated using the ACTUAL passages and the ACTUAL words
that the Bible doesn’t say what you’ve been screeching it does. Now you aren’t even trying, you’re just stomping your
feet and saying ‘nu-uh’ instead of even bothering with a rejoinder.
“William Lane Craig may be an intellectually dishonest charlatan, but at least he doesn’t pretend that the OT god didn’t support slavery or demand
the murder of children. We haven’t even addressed Abraham and Isaac, which is pretty unambiguously evil.”
1. ‘Intellectually dishonest’? You tried this card with Dever and Campbell and got smacked down, remember? Of course you don’t,
because that would imply you’ve actually attempted to engage the debate and learned from your mistakes. The man has 30 books under his belt
has multiple MAs and Th.Ds as well as a Ph.D in the fields of philosophy , theology, and history, is a respected authority in ANE language and
religious studies, and holds chairs in multiple philosophy departments in multiple universities. He has received honors, even from those who
disagree with him (Anthony Flew, Lawrence Krauss, and many others).
2. You just misrepresented his position entirely: He never said anything of the sort. I have two of his books where he broaches the subject
(“God?: A Debate Between a Christian and an Atheist” and “Reasonable Faith”) and in both cases he says the EXACT opposite of what you are
claiming. The only ‘intellectually dishonest’ cat in this bag is you.
3. Once again, you are:
A. Unable to understand the concept of allegory (Genesis, hello?).
B. Have completely missed the point the passage (God stopped Abraham and explained that he would NEVER honestly ask him to do that).
C. Your panicky cries of claims ‘teh evul!1!’ are like every other emotional tirade you’ve gone on thus far: completely impotent, fact-free
and provably (and laughably) false.
“You know, it’s interesting that I get the same abuse from pretty much every Christian I’ve talked to.”
There is an old Cuban saying: “Sometimes the world will call you a fool and you must walk on and ignore them. But when someone points
out your foolish behavior and you say ‘I care not!’, then the world is right: you are a fool.”
“I’m telling you how I feel about your book and why your attempts to rationalize the things it says in plain English don’t much impress me.”
What rationalization? I’ve pointed out that it that the problem you have with the Bible is based on your own ignorance of it.
That’s not just me. That’s an entire body of scholars and academics, secular and religious. Your lack of engagement with any of it
proves that problem is with your own ideological hangups and your own illogical behavior, not the book itself.
“I’ve made no comment about you as a person, except that you were morally confused about this book. I’m sure you’re a perfectly good human
Nice backpeddle there, sunshine. But given how inconsistent you are and how wildly you you swing
around, I have no doubt that you’ll pull the same crap again….and get called on it, again.
“That’s the point. You don’t need this ridiculous mythology to be that. As a moderate Christian, you’ve clearly worked quite hard to reconcile a
modern, secularist morality with the ancient brutality of the book and god you believe in. ”
1. No, the point is your crooked, cowardly, cretinous, cerebrally collapsed conduct on this comment thread, demonstrates you lack the moral
wherewithall to be able to say that statement with any level of authority (since you wouldn’t know good conduct if it bit you on the ass).
2. Do I even need to once again point out that you’ve failed to substantiate anything concerning the supposed “brutality” you accuse the Bible of?
There is a ridiculous mythology at work allright, and that is the weird little ideological narrative that you are operating under, Duck Soup.
You’ve worked very hard to bury your head in the sand in service of that narrative. But reality doesn’t change simply because you ignore it..
“My only real problem with people like you is that your presence legitimizes the crazies.”
No, my presence is bane to fundamentalists of every stripe. I take on YECs and Prosperity Preachers and
whole kaleidoscope of wack jobs. Wack jobs who act just like you. Welcome to the hit parade, sonny.
**Which is it, Squid Ink Soup? Here or email?**
“A History of Israel” by John Bright
“Reconstructing the Society of Ancient Israel” by Paula McNutt
“Jewish Publication Society Torah Commentary”
“God?: A Debate Between a Christian and an Atheist” by William Lane Craig and Walter Sinnot-Armstrong
“Reasonable Faith” by William Lane Craig
Direct any further responses to email@example.com. I’m getting nothing at my other email.
Okay. That answers my question. You have selected to end our conversation here and move it to email.
Sending it now.
They translated works of the ancient world, but they did not distribute them. Except to monks who hoarded and to their credit preserved them, as they did much knowledge.
But, I can’t really argue with someone who is convinced by a pro-Catholic book that makes specious claims. You really must be joking about most of this stuff. For instance, agricultural techniques, mathematics, physics, and astronomy. These are all things that blossomed in the Islamic world until their own psychotic fundamentalists dragged them down into the dirt.
There are those who don’t take the book entirely seriously.
“They translated works of the ancient world, but they did not distribute them. Except to monks who hoarded and to their credit preserved them, as they did much knowledge.”
Oh yeah…I’m sure Albertus Magnus, Robert Grosseteste, Roger Bacon, John Peckham, Duns Scotus, Thomas Bradwardine, Walter Burley, William Heytesbury, Richard Swineshead, John Dumbleton, Richard of Wallingford, Nicholas Oresme, Jean Buridan and Nicholas of Cusa and the thousands like them didn’t do anything and just sat on the knowledge./sarcasm
Are you even hearing yourself?
“But, I can’t really argue with someone who is convinced by a pro-Catholic book that makes specious claims.”
Oh yeah really far out there…..EXCEPT GOD’S PHILOSOPHERS IT WAS SHORT LISTED BY THE ROYAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES. Those claims aren’t “specious”.
They’re fact. Oh, and by the way? Numbers and Lindberg (the other two sources I listed)? an Agnostic and an Atheist respectively. Nice try getting out of it.
“You really must be joking about most of this stuff. For instance, agricultural techniques, mathematics, physics, and astronomy. These are all things that blossomed in the Islamic world….”
Oh really? The stirrup, anti-septic treatment, elliptical orbits ,etc showed up in the Islamic world first? BZZT! Wrong.
Not don’t get me wrong. Islam saw many great advances and it’s scholars did contribute the global advancment but it helps to see who made what: for example: Antiseptic practices and Anesthesiology (as well as many other firsts in the realm of surgery) were birthed through the works of Theodoric Borgognoni (a Dominican Friar ) and Rogerius Salernitanus (an Italian Physician). Those works, especially “On Surgery” and “Cyrurgia” were translated and distributed by Muslim Scholars. “Avicenna” is the name you were looking for, a Islamic Theologian and Scientist, who wrote one of the first treatises on what would eventually become the sciences of Microbiology and Sports Medicine. That work was “The Canon of Medicine” (written in Hyrcania, by the by, not Spain) a book which was translated and distributed by the Christian Church.
Your illiteracy is stunning.
“There are those who don’t take the book entirely seriously.”
Yeah. They’re called imbeciles, sunshine.
Furthermore, given that I have offered sources from Atheistic and Agnostic perspectives as well, that cop out of yours sinks too.
You say these books were distributed by the church as though they were available in public libraries. You know only a select few had access, correct? The rich and powerful ruled over by the iron grip of the Catholic church. I provided a link to an article that explains the problems with ‘God’s Philosophers’, chief being that it mistakes ‘natural philosophy’ for science.
“You say these books were distributed by the church as though they were available in public libraries.
You know only a select few had access, correct?”
BZZT! Wrong again. The Dominicans, the Franciscans, the Benedictines, and the Jesuits maintained large libraries open to the public.You couldn’t take the books OUT of the libraries (of course). But you were free to study them within their walls.
Hell, the monks even tutored adults and children who wanted to learn to read. For free.
“The rich and powerful ruled over by the iron grip of the Catholic church.”
Other way around, actually. A shameful thing and why I always admired men like St. Francis of Assisi for speaking truth to power and reminding the Church of what they are about and who they really must serve.
“I provided a link to an article that explains the problems with ‘God’s Philosophers’, chief being that it mistakes ‘natural philosophy’ for science.”
Yeah, and the link I originally provided points out why that is a load of crap. But in case you need something more detailed:
“Circulation of Books in the Medieval Franciscan Order: Attitude, Methods, and Critics” By Neslihan Senocak
spoony one…..I have the same problem……
That warning isn’t a lie. I can never watch Forrest gump with a straight face again.
Love ya Spoony, that bull on twitter from jeseokuta was out of line!
So Mazes and Monsters is to D&D what Reefer Madness is to marijuana.
the joco was epic.
I find any irrational fear to be stupid. Personally its the D&D and Gay fear which find insulting
It’s occurred to me recently that a lot of the kids are too young to remember when people thought D&D was evil.
I fucking hate being 28.
I’m 23 and I recently read a article about how people shouldn’t take part in certain components of the “Satan’s spiritual structure” that they lead to “Demonic Possession” Video games,D&D and a bunch of other things are listed. I really want to backhand the person who wrote the list to death.
Americans love a good moral panic.
Parents EVERYWHERE love a good moral panic. Gives
them a chance to pass the buck when something goes wrong
with their kid.
“It wasn’t me! It was that music!”
“It wasn’t me! It was those video games!”
“It wasn’t me! It was the complete works of Ralph Ellison!”
…and so on….and so forth. It’s practically a universal constant.
You know, we really shouldn’t shit up Spoony’s comments anymore. If you’ve got more sad excuses for atrocities, send them to APBadger2@yahoo.com.
I’ll delete this post as soon as I get a confirmation.
If you had any actual concern for ‘shitting up’ the comments section
you would have stopped posting a long time ago.
See, I recognize this post of yours for what it is:
You are out of gas and recognize that you are getting your head punted in on a public forum so you are looking for a way out without looking like a weasel.
Nobody is buying it, chauncy.
But….fine. You know what? Fine. Have it your way.
You want to talk this over email? You want to take this private?
Consider it sent.
I look forward to continuing your education, sunshine.
Man, Christians always get so defensive. Actually, I just find this format frustrating to read and reply to. Wish I hadn’t made that post as a guest, though…
If you want to post all of our correspondence somewhere where Christians can laugh at me, I don’t mind.
Nothing about being ‘defensive’. It’s just a matter of pointing out that you were wrong and hoping you’d learn from your mistakes.
I’m not particularly convinced I’m wrong. The bible says what the bible says. Your glosses are very educational, but if for instance a word translated as ‘rape’ does not refer to rape, I can’t see why this wouldn’t have been addressed by some translation long ago. Similarly, when the bible refers to the Israelites killing children, I can’t see why some translation wouldn’t mention that god told them to, but they decided not to.
In its present form, the bible contains some horrific acts. This should certainly be addressed in further translations. Until then, I’m not going to give it an out just because you’ve convinced yourself you can.
Once again: the translations already exist. That is why there is an entire industry dedicated to printing translation guides and Bibles with side by side study notes. All of which prove these ‘horrific acts’ of yours just aren’t there.
It’s not a matter of ‘giving it an out’ , because reading damn thing demonstrates just how bonkers your read of it was.
Now. Are we still here or going to email? You said email previously, did you take that back?
I don’t take that back. I was simply responding to your comment.
And I still am going to say ‘don’t give a fuck’ about translation guides. If you can’t work something as important as the distinction between rape and seduction into the text that is all that the vast majority of people are actually going to read, I don’t see why it’s important. I have no reason to believe any of the stories anyway, but I’ll go ahead and take them at face value for the time being.
Heaven forbid people actually study their faith and make the Samson-esque effort to visit a library….
Clearly you aren’t one of those people, but you realize that the dumb masses are just going to take it at face value. And you must admit that, at face value, it says some pretty nightmarish things. And has continued to do so through many translations.
Me? I don’t care enough to worry about how a translation guide can’t make it less morally reprehensible, and I don’t see enough value in believing in something obviously imaginary to justify me caring if I other people do. I certainly don’t grudge people who get comfort from the faith, though. As long as they don’t think anyone else should believe it.
Or try to say that the fucking Church has never executed, by fire or other means, anybody.
Have you emailed me yet? I’m not getting anything.
1. I think I’ve categorically answered why each every one of those statements is nonsense. but hey whatever gets you through the day.
2. I just got the new Gordon Ramsey-Tech Comment AI. Let me test it out:
“Because the fucking church never fucking could fucking kill fucking anyone because the fucking feudal fucking lords would never fucking give them that kind of fucking power to fuck around with. GARLIC!”
Uh…I’m gonna need my money back on that one.
Uh. Yeah. Look. I’m gonna try and send this from my alt. Look for a name that starts with ‘gemini’.
The feudal lords were absolutely beholden to the authority of the church. You must be insane. They ruled at the behest of the pope, and if he excommunicated them, they were gone. Henry VIII was the first one to do it successfully, and that caused more than a few problems.
Do you really believe this shit?
Also, I’ve got nothing. Not even in my spam folder.
Oh really? Then someone should have told that to King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella (as I point out before),
Lord Richard Maeus, Frederick I, and many, many others.
Nice try. =)
You get my email yet?
Well, I’m glad I live in a country where orthodox christian organizations don’t have so much influence on society. Sure we’re a country with a christian tradition, but also with a liberal one. There are other concerns here however, from an educational point of view some seem to think roleplaying is providing too much of an escape from reality so kids might get delusional etc. and providing brutal murder fantasies blah blah….I guess it’s usual in every country that everything most of society doesn’t understand is immediatly suspected to be harmful in some way.
Yeah. The low view societies have of Roleplaying games is, unfortunately one of those worldwide phenomenons that is hard to uproot.
It seems like the ‘negativity of DnD’ is one of the few things that people from across multiple spectrums (religious and nonreligious, liberal and con, urbanite and rural, etc) have agreed upon.
Fortunately, the modern Psychiatric discipline has gone a long way to both assuage those fears and to prove that Roleplaying can, in fact, be extremely useful in promoting healthy mental functioning.
Sounds like what happened to my Pastor. The Pastor of my church once debated a member of Jack Chick’s sect (and a
quite the splintered and wacky group they are. Thankfully they only
number less than a hundred) and they actually brought up D&D. My
Pastor, being a gamer himself countered their accusations against Dungeons and Dragons, and the guy
flipped out and left the debate. So yeah, bonkers.